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Toll road meeting relocated due to expected high turnout
January 25th, 2008, 2:38 pm · 389 Comments · posted by Laylan Connelly, staff writer
The California Coastal Commission hearing on Feb. 6 regarding the Foothill Transportation toll road has moved location.
The meeting will now be held at Del Mar Fairgrounds, Wyland hall, 2260 Jimmy Durante Blvd. The meeting starts at 9 a.m. The meeting was originally supposed to take place at the Oceanside City Council Chambers.
CLICK HERE for more information.
The Transportation Corridor Agencies wants to built a 16-mile extension of the Foothill (241) Toll Road, connecting Rancho Santa Margarita to the San Diego (I-5) Freeway south of San Clemente. The extension would run through the San Onofre State Beach park.
Opponents say this will destroy one of Southern California’s last pristine coastal watersheds and the surf at Trestles, an area with 12 surf breaks for every kind of surfer.
Hundreds – if not thousands – of Surfrider Foundation activists and others are expected to show up at the meeting to rally against the toll road.
Coastal analyst Mark Delaplaine said the expected high turnout was what prompted the venue change.
“We heard rumors there was going to more than 2,000 people,” he said. “We said ’something’s got to give.”
The rest of the meeting for the following two days will be held at the Oceanside City Council Chambers.
- Laylan
Where is the meeting? Is there an address?
I want to stop the toll road too.
I-5 S toward San Diego
Take exit 36 for Via de la Valle toward Del Mar
Turn right at Via de la Valle
Turn left at Jimmy Durante Blvd
Del Mar Fairgrounds
2260 Jimmy Durante Blvd, Del Mar, CA 92014
I don’t understand how this new inland road will “mess up” Trestles. The road will be nowhere near the sand, let alone the surf. I would think that old, ugly, oily, dirty train trestle that was plunked down literally on the sand, and for which this minor beach was so named, would be a bigger concern than a new freeway hundreds of yards inland.
Ever notice the diesel oil and grease that coats the busy railroad tracks on that line? All of that oily railroad gunk from the train trestle seems to be the biggest culprit in damaging the beach environment if you ask me.
Why on earth would you want to stop the toll road. If there was ever an emergency, there is no way the 5 North could ever manage the traffic. The current proposed path of the 241 would have little if any impact on Trestles. I live in San Clemente and love the ocean, but this is a necessary addition.
I’m all for listening to your heart, but sometimes you have to listen to your head as well. And, most of all, stop listenting to ill-informed Toll Road opponents! Don’t believe the hype, scientific studies have concluded that Foothill-South will not change the surf break at Trestles, will not change the beautiful walk to Trestles and will not impact the water quality at the beach. Foothill-South is going to be built with extraordinary sensitivity to the environment and will give drivers an alternative to gridlocked I-5 and congested city streets. Not to mention it will serve as an evacuation route in case of emergency, currently I-5 is the only major route in and out of Orange County, a scary thought.
Tressels will not be messed up by the toll road. It is a big lie spread by those who want to make our traffic worse in the vain hope that it will stop growth. The truth is growth will occur anyway , and traffic will only get worse. By building the toll road, you are part of the solution and the benefit is that ,tressels’ water quality will be improved because run off from I-5 and the toll road will be cleaned up. Don’t listen to the crazies. Be a part of a responsible solution and support the toll road.
go to : http://www.relievetraffic.org and learn the truth!
Why is an important meeting effecting Orange County being held that far down in San Diego County? This prevents many working people in Orange County from attending the meeting and expressing concerns against this toll road extension.
The 241 toll road must be completed to relieve traffic congestion on the I-5. This alignment for this road has been reviewed and reviewed. The proposed one is the best for everyone and does not harm San Onofre. It goes only into the I-5 and no where near the beach. The opponents don’t care about Californians access to the beach it is only for their few. The state doesn’t own the state beach, the land is leased from the Feds and the lease has 8 more years to run. TCA has offered the state $100million to help the state parks and that includes funds to renew the San Onofre lease for another 25 years. The road and park funding is what is good for all Californians.
I am in favor of doing whatever it takes to ease up traffic in our area- I would like to see the Toll Fees go down- it is rather costly, we should at least get a break at non peak hours & on weekends so more people feel they can use the Toll Road! If the 91 Toll Road can offer non peak prices so should the 241.
Thanks
We need a lot more GOOD Roads in California but I think the toll should always be a fixed rate of $1.00 pay booth for every every 25 miles. We should not GOUGE the people who are already in the bumper to bumper, rush hour trying to get back home from work to pay even a greater penalty of more money . I just moved here from Illinois where it was set up that way and I refuse to use the California toll-way because of the gouging . I saw at Toll of $10.00 (That is outragious) > just because it was a busy day and lots of rush hour traffic. Somebody who set up the Tollway system with a private concern must have had his pockets lined really good.
The surfrider foundation has consistently lied about this project so they can extort money from members and the toll road people. This is one of the most disgraceful performances buy a nimby group I’ve ever seen. A member of the surfrider group did a survey and found that the 241 would have no impact on Trestles.
Lies, distortion and half truths is the order of the day at the surfrider foundation. Shame on you all.
Why isn’t this meeting being held in Orange County? We are the drivers negatively impacted by the toll road being delayed.
What logic leads people to believe the 241 would destroy Trestles when the I-5 didn’t. Also, it is absolutely outrageous that the meeting has been moved to Del Mar Fairgrounds in San DIego County. This is an Orange County facility and an Orange County issue. Certainly Orange County has plenty of facilities of sufficent size to accomodate the expected turnout. To ask interested Orange County residents to commute 75 miles south through the traffic that typically occurs in the vicinity of the Fairgrounds is unacceptable. Not to mention, if the opponents are as environmentally conscientious as they claim, they should also be outraged by the wasted enery and air quality impacts of taking interested ORange County participants deep into San Diego County for this meeting.
Build the Toll Road!!!. We need to be progressive in our thinking and plan for our future. Toll Road opponents should put the same time, effort and energy into working with the Toll Road builders to ensure that the road is as environmentally safe as possible.
It seems that the Surfrider foundation is really trying to keep the beach to themselves, and maybe is afraid that more people from the Inland Empire will make it down to their beach if this road is built.
Thanks to our Governor for his support, it is good to see that has taken a stand.
I am really fond of the idea the toll road extension. The property values of existing homes will increase along with the accessibility of Trestles. I wish we had more toll roads so i could avoid traffic!!
I checked out the Toll Road website and the alignment of this new freeway. Honestly, for the life of me I can not figure out how this would impact Trestles beach one bit. It’s like saying the Carls Jr. up on El Camino Real impacts Trestles. The argument that Trestles will be “ruined” just doesn’t stand up to logic and facts.
And no one can explain to me how the actual train trestle for which the beach is named and that is coated in diesel oil and locomotive grease is a good thing.
That dirty, grungy trestle sits directly on the sand with a constant stream of freight and passenger locomotives roaring by belching diesel fumes and spewing oil and dirt. But somehow we are supposed to worry more about the vastly cleaner technology found in modern cars that are driving hundreds of yards inland from the train trestle? Not to mention the eight lanes of Interstate 5 Freeway that is already there, and has been there for fourty years.
The Toll Road is needed by the community at large, and will benefit all who travel on it. Clean up the oily and dirty train trestle and the diesel belching locomotives that rumble over it first, and then you can start complaining about a soccer mom in her Honda Accord.
Relieve congestion? Hardly. There’s only one reason and one reason only that there’s so much money trying to push this though - and that’s development. Regardless of the recent housing market, this is the only reason the backers want it built. The future traffic congestion is based on all the new housing that’s planning on being built along this expansion. Build it and they will come.
Ask yourself - how will this expansion relieve congestion on the 5? The answer is that it can’t. Just look at a map.
OK, I have to add my own 2-cents:
Born in Orange County, I’m a lifelong South County resident, of over 48 years now, and I feel that there is a definite balance between growth and the “protection of those living things” that are much lower than we are on the food chain! I’ve seen a lot of growth and a lot of change here in those years, not all of it positive.
There was obvious approval for such major developments as the Talega area of San Clemente, and it stands to reason that as our population increases, so does the local traffic. We cannot just stop this progress, unless we consider removing the population in those new areas. And since that’s not going to happen, we need viable solutions to our own congestion problems. There are only 2 ways out of the back side of San Clemente, and in an emergency evacuation scenario alone, it could prove devastating, if not deadly. This adds to the obvious fact that there is only one way through San Clemente. Imagine the issues of evacuation if the I-5 were to be closed off and shut down! It has happened, and no doubt will happen again.
The existing toll roads (73, 133, and the 241) were built with major opposition as well, but now combine to provide a partial, but very viable solution to some of the traffic problems in the central county areas. And those roads run through beautiful open space that is not only protected now, but visually accessible to those traveling on them! I know firsthand, as I use the roads almost every day to save both time and money.
If you have ever used the 73, 133, or the 241 toll roads, even just one time, and are still opposing the final phase of the 241, consider yourself a hypocrite. If you own a transponder for any of those toll roads, how can you possibly oppose any toll road? Shame on you and your hypocrisy! None of the toll roads above were any different from the 241 extension in their perceived effect on the environment prior to their construction.
We as humans need to realize that sometimes things that seem horrible, and are perceived as “the end of life as we know it” sometimes work out for the better. No one, especially those of us who live here in San Clemente, wants to ruin the quintessential world renown surfing spot known as Trestles. Obviously there will only be one Trestles, but the millions of dollars spent in studying the various alternatives have proven that minimal disturbance to sensitive areas will occur, both as a result of construction, and the use of the 241 extension! There are very expensive measures built into the construction plan to allow for drainage and runoff issues, wildlife crossing issues, view obstruction issues, and the list goes on. The only thing that will change is that the toll road feeder onto the southbound I-5 will provide a better view of the waves at Trestles as you drive by!
Maybe it is selfish of me, but as a human, I would rather spend more time with my family, than sit in traffic on I-5!
We need to be able to live in this county with commom sense! Not all of us are stupid enough to listen to surfriders uninformed propoganda. Do your own research. We all live here because its easier life style than L.A. so let’s keep it that way. Traffic congestion is not good for anyone. In a earthquake, fire, landslide…zone we need ease of mind to leave when we need to get out! I am personally fed up with waisting so much $ on hype. Let’s get on with it. Had we not waisted so much $ on going back and forth on all transportation issues, we would had by now the best metro lines to put Europe to shame. Let’s move on we don’t want to owe any more $ to china or anywhere else. Stop the waist of time and money!!!
For the life of me I can not understand what has happened to common sense. Anyone who travels the I-5 on weekends knows we have a serious infrastructure issue. If people would take the time to look at the TCA plans they would know those who oppose it are not telling the truth.
The TCA plans to spend millions of dollars to ensure there is “no” impact on the beach or the water. It will in fact be better when they are done. Those who are against it think they can stop the building of future homes inland from the I-5. Won’t happen. With or without the toll road when the demand comes back for housing they will build and then the people can travel on the streets. The Coastal Commission and the Surfrider group need to get on board and do what is right for all of us.
The toll road needed to ease traffic congestions
Get over it. This not a NIMBY issue. Enough of So Cal has been paved over. Its time to preserve what is left and there is no better opportunity than right here, right now. If motorists are so concerned about traffic let them get out of their one-to-a-car habits and carpool or use public transport. Trestles and the park are truely gems. Lets leave well enough alone.
bob in cardiff
Deatra Poole, you say you just moved here and your statements show you do not know the history of the toll roads. The operation here is quite different than in Illinois where they charge a toll to drive on a public interstate highway. The toll roads in Orange County are privately funded and the toll is used to pay off the loans needed to build these brand new highways. Once the loans are paid off, the toll roads will become FREEways.
I would like to know if any of these people that are in favor of the toll road actually go to the beach ? What a joke we all know that it is the money hungry developers who are going to make serious dollars on this project . As soon as the road is completed it will be strip malls and housing projects on each side .Why cant we leave something pristine alone ?
Hello All,
So it sounds like this website is full of VOCAL proponents of the toll road extension. I’m here to tell all of you why I DO NOT want the toll road to be extended along San Mateo Creek. There are SO many reasons why this is a bad idea, I am extremely surprised that some of you cannot see through the TCA’s BS. In fact my favorite was when someone posted the TCA’s website, http://www.relievetraffic.org, as a source. This makes me believe that the TCA itself may or may not be behind some of these posts. Anyway, to the meat of the discussion: Why I am opposed to the toll road.
1. First and foremost, nature is a very important part of my life. Living in Southern California all my life, I know that there are very few parts of the coastline still undeveloped. I believe it is extremely important that a the few areas that are already undeveloped stay this way, so future can enjoy them in their natural form. When I walk down the trail to trestles, I feel like I am leaving the urban environment that I call home and am entering into a more real environment where I am free to experience nature in its own way.
2. The waves at Trestles Beach are some of the best in the world, hands down. Trestles is one stop on the 10 stop World Championship Tour of surfing. This leads me to believe that Trestles is one of the top ten surf spots IN THE WORLD. The sediment that flows down San Mateo Creek, the same sediment that would be partially blocked by building the toll road, is a major part of the magic that sets trestles apart from other breaks. Look at many of the good breaks in California: Rincon, C-Street, Malibu, Trestles-they all have one thing in common, a river or creek nearby that deposits sediment. Sure, its possible that building the road won’t affect the surf break, but why take the chance?
3. Water Quality-One of the major reasons that the water in Southern California is so polluted after rain is because so much of the region is developed and paved over. When it rains, this water has nowhere to go but into the ocean, taking with it all the pollutants that exist on our roads and in our streets. San Mateo Creek, being undeveloped, much of the water soaks into the ground instead of running off into the ocean. Because it is undeveloped, the water that does make it into the ocean is vastly less polluted than other coastal waterways. The TCA claims that building the toll road will actually improve water quality by usage of catch basins and holding ponds. This doesn’t make sense. The catch basins will clog and break…its inevitable. No where, in the history of the world, has building a 6 lane freeway improved local water quality. Sorry.
4. Endangered Species-There are no less than 11 endangered species of birds and fish that call the San Mateo Creek region home. Enough Said.
5. Development Farther Up the Creek-While there is no major development as of now up the creek, surely building a toll road will encourage developers to pave the land and develop, residential, commercial, and industrial property. Not only will this worsen water quality exponentially, it will also worsen traffic. Thats right I said it, extending the 241 South toll road will actually WORSEN TRAFFIC.
Thats all for now. Oh and those who commented about the train tracks that were so dirty, etc…they aren’t even dirty. One train is much more efficient than a million cars coming down a 6 lane freeway–anyone can see that. Also the train tracks are already there. The logic that those of you who cite the train tracks are using is backward. Because there is already train tracks through trestles, we should build a freeway? How does that make any sense?
I agree that the dirty, grungy trestle and the eight lanes of I-5 Freeway shall be cleaned first before we are concerned about the pollutants from the toll road located several hundered yards away from the creek outlet. In addition, the surfers can confirm that the outlet is closed by the beach sand most of the year. If the outlet is constantly closed, how can a new roadway with the state-of-the-art runoff treatment would affect the beach?
Now that the toll road will help to clean up the I-5 and it is a planned OC road for more than 20 years, let’s have it built now. It is the last segment of the freeway that shall be completed to keep OC moving forward. OC citizens do not want another I-710 extension issue dragging on to the future. It would be much cheaper to build it now than later. It will also create some jobs for local communities.
I support the toll road.
OC needs the tollroad.
The road is cutting into State Park Land. If the State Parks accept the offer off $100mil, that sets a precedent that our State Parks can be bought.
Also, this issue is not the direct location at the I-5, but the entire path, that could change the waterflow, which in turn will change the beach at Trestles, thus the world class surf.
But most of you have never been down there to see the place. As for the actual Trestle, TROY, not much comes off the train at 60mph.
Also, this is a road being built for profit on a pay to use purpose. Not everyone wants to pay, and who will over see the fee The 91 cost too much.
Find a different route, Start a Basilone.
It does not matter how careful you say they are going to be. With action comes reaction. ALWAYS. Building more does not help the enviroment. Period.
When it rains all of the road pollution will flow into the creek and out of the creek mouth into the water between upper and lower trestles. Look at the map of the route, it paralles the creek. Polluting a state park should not be allowed. The catch basins will only spred out the time the pollutants take to make it to the water. They will still make it. State parks belong to all of the people of California not just the drivers on I5. I object to taking any park land, there is not enough to begin with. The Marines have plenty of land, route it though the base. The cost in $ is not that much different, the savings in beach pollution is.
More More More, Thats all these ppl. want. We as PPl need to start to slow down!!! San Meteo is the last strong hold. We need to fight for our Land/and surfbreak!!!
The same group, built the 73 toll road. They started off buy charging $2.00 for it. They told the public that after 5 years it would be free.
Look now. Its $5.00. Someone is getting rich. thats why they can offer $1000 mil.
Also , I think, ppl in the State Government are getting there pockets stuffed, under the table.
Look what happening to Oceanside. Crime and cost have gone up. since they built the free way. Thats what will happen to San Clemente, Capo beach, Dana Point.
The Big Money ppl and State Government are the only ppl that will benifit.
All the runoff from building the FWY will go right to Trestles, and screw everything up.
Most you ppl, that want the toll road dont live anywhere near, Trestles
I do!!! I will fight it till the end. and then some.
If ppl would use public trans. We would be going threw this.
In Cali everyone is in there own world. Take the horse blockers off, and get real.
We are screwing our world up a little bit at a time.
Ppl that want the toll road are to blame!!!!
It is imparitive that stop the Toll Road. I am a 5th generation Califonian and my voice counts.
The crazies are at it again. The reason homes & freeways are so expensive is not because of all high land costs but from all of the regulations, permits, fees, studies, reports, hearings and legal challenges of every kind (mostly enviornmenal, justified or not). I hate toll roads but because of the cost to build anything anymore this is the only way i see we can relieve traffic. The land of fruits and nuts are again playing right into the hands of the big corporations, environmental corporations and trial lawyers association. Everyone has their hand out to get paid off to go away; from the surfrider foundation to the sierra club and center for bio-diversity and their lawyers. People need to wake up and see just how many regulations, restrictions and extortions are being placed on you by governmental bodies.
I am in support of the toll road expansion.
I see there is overwhelming support for this by the OC readers. It’s hard to argue against improving traffic, who wouldn’t want that? But the thing none of you seem to care about is at what cost. And I am not talking about how it may or may not affect the waves. What you are really saying is that it’s OK for private industry to make deals with the government to pave over lands set aside as STATE PARKS for future generations to enjoy. Once this precedent is started, don’t cry about it when your favorite state park becomes a road, low income housing, a stadium or whatever some contracting company gets the government to back. Oh, and one other thing. Have fun with the thousands upon thousands of new homes that will be built because the toll road makes it possible for them to get permits because it won’t impact roads like PICO, etc. You are basically inviting more traffic than you can possibly dream of. Remember Laguna’s Hills?
Saving Trestles has nothing to do with the surf and everything to do with all of the inland area directly adjacent to the beach near the state parks. The wave died when the asphalt trail, parking lot and Carl’s junior and port-o-potties were planned, approved and built, like placing malignant tumors into to healthy human tissue, the toll road is another cancerous misadventure in progress. As a long time resident and surfer of San Clemente’s beaches, I have never experienced an increase in the quality of life in this area because of a new road, on-ramp, off-ramp, and or traffic light. There is no answer for reducing traffic congestion, except to reduce the number of automobiles traveling on them. There will always be more congestion regardless of how many new toll roads are built. However, we can preserve one of the last remaining coastal estuaries in southern california and that is worth any number of toll roads. San Clemente does not need another tentacle of traffic infiltrating its open spaces, it will only result in more congestion. The toll road is an invasion and should be treated by the “local” community as such.
The toll road has been a bad idea from the beginning and nothing can change that. It may be time for someone to come up with a “better bad idea”.
Why are only “PRO toll road” comments being posted on this blog??? I know several people that have written and tried to comment AGAINST the toll road yet I don’t see their posts… Why not?
Are you censoring those of us who are against the Toll Road?
Just in case I get posted here…
I’m AGAINST the TOLL ROAD!
Wake up people, a toll road is NOT a solution, it’s a Band Aid on cancer. Once the road is built, there will be more communities built off it and thus more people = more traffic. Do you people actually think a road will bring LESS people to these already congested areas? No! Roads bring more people and more cars and more traffic!
Right now, Trestles is a relatively clean and beautifully natural beach. A toll road right up its creek would just be a short term solution that will further pollute its river (name ONE river mouth in So Cal that is not polluted), contaminate a great beach and ruin/close a State Park. A STATE PARK people! Do you not care about our California State Parks? Why does Arnold get to trump Ronald?
Nothing is sacred when the price is right I guess…
Don’t be surprised when the next California State Park gets shut down so you can save 15 minutes on your next Toll Road experience… Lame.
Where will the children play?
The 73 has not relieved traffic. It paved the way for more suburban sprawl in Orange County and created more congestion. The 241 Toll Road would lead to additional traffic in South Orange County in the same manner.
The 241 would place polluting infrastructure through a State Park held by the people for recreational and conservational purposes It would also bisect the Donna O’neil Land Conservancy which was supposedly preserved forever to make up for Talega’s encroachment on natural open space.
The 241’s construction and use would both create massive amounts of particulate, atmospheric, and noise pollution which would effect the ecosystems and water/air quality in its vicinity as well as the atmosphere. The pollution which makes its way into the watershed will end up in the ocean at Trestles. And I, for one, believe that much of the pollution which is created in these processes will end up in the watershed because of the TCA’s horrendous track record with managing pollution. The runoff filters on the 73 failed and were fixed with over 3 million dollars of the taxpayers’ money.
There has NEVER been a road which doesn’t pollute. This is the cleanest watershed in the area and the 241 addition would run along it for nearly its entire length. This Toll Road project will inevitably pollute the San Mateo watershed and will, therefore, ABSOLUTELY affect Trestles.
We Need this improvement to ease the congestion in the south county area
Please complete the toll road.
Yes we need this extension.
I agree that the dirty, grungy trestle and the eight lanes of I-5 Freeway shall be cleaned first before we are concerned of the pollutants from the toll road located several hundered yards away from the creek outlet. In addition, the surfers can confirm that the outlet is closed by the beach sand most of the year. If the outlet is constantly closed, how can a new roadway with the state-of-the-art runoff treatment would affect the beach?
Now that the toll road will help to clean up the I-5 and it is a planned OC road for more than 20 years, let’s have it built now. It is the last segment of the freeway that shall be completed to keep OC moving forward. I don’t think OC citizens want another I-710 extension issue dragging on to the future. It would be much cheaper to build it now than later. It will also create some jobs for local communities.
The surfrider foundation has consistently lied about this project so they can extort money from members and the toll road people.
More people would use the Toll Road! If the Toll Road fees were more in line with other toll road fees across country,
You should offer non peak prices on the 241, like you do with the 91.
Hey, great idea guys!
We should build more roads so more infrastructure can be built around those roads, and increase business and bodies in the Southern California area! Why not build on some of the last remaining open ocean land in Orange County, sounds like a great idea to me!!!!
You guys are spot-on! With more roads and more people, traffic will definitely NOT be impacted and in 20 years time there will be even LESS people in OC!!!!!
If anyone has driven between LA county and San Diego county, they would know why a toll road is just a huge waste of money and a destruction of the California landscape. Case in point, take a look (or drive for that matter) at the current Toll Road (CA-73) that bypasses the I-5. There is never anyone driving on this road. And the reason….the $5 charge to use the 18 mile stretch.
The Foothill (241) is going to have the same effect. People are going to fight for it because they want an alternative to I-5, but then they won’t use it because they don’t want to spend the money. The Foothill is going to cause damage to not only the surf breaks at Trestles, but will also distroy a major part of the state park land in San Onofre. And all that will be left is an unused piece of concrete that I hope one day you can proudly tell your children that you supported that instead of preserving the park land.
Trestles will be ruined. The ecology of our land is in danger !
Are you guys kidding? You are correct in syaing that the actual road itself won’t effect the surf, but how many more people are going to make their way to Trestles if there is easier access? Isn’t it crowded enough? This will not only effect the surf lineup, but the added impact from the hordes of people that will then visit the place will be exponentially worse. More trash, more graffitti, more feces, more of everything that has already damaged the once beautiful spot.
You have to at least agree with that, and to me, that alone is worth the vote against the toll road.
outside of disrupting one of the worlds best waves there are many plants and animals species that are indigenous to the san mateo creek zone and may not survive the aftermath.
The developers who have had their way with OC politicians since the 2nd world war are the ones who want the toll road so they can continue to develop every last bit of open space.
Where does it stop? At the San Diego county line!
no matter what the studies show, any industrial activity, ie…the toll road, will have environmental impact. Where do you think the oils and gasoline, and rubber will run off the overpasses and road. It will run directly into the watershed, and ruin the animal habitat directly adjacent to the road
I’m amazed at those who think this road will alleviate congestion even the slightest bit for the larger majority…. even IF the 10,000+ housing development that Rancho Mission Viejo has planned is not built in conjunction. Hmmm… what’s the REAL reason the TCA is pushing for this road….???
Facts as I see it:
OCTA admits road extension provides no traffic relief (see projected traffic diagrams). Seems common sense to me.
CCC study says the toll road is not a good solution and not eco sound.
TCA has previous projects about to go BK (who pays for it…? um, yeah, taxpayers.)
CalTrans must sign a non compete… no improvements within a certain distance of toll road. WHAT?!?! There is no possible way this can be spun to serve the interest of the greater good.
Arnold. Wow. Vascillating when times get tough. Paving over a state park to get some pocket change (from an organization that seems to already deep in ther red) is not an acceptable solution.
San Mateo Creek Watershed is benchmark for water quality in S.CA…. the only one with NO UPSTREAM DEVELOPMENT. The last of it’s kind for hundrends of miles each direction. Upstream development (!!!) undoubtedly will come with the road if built. No doubt there would be short term contamination to a unique, fragile ecosystem during construction. There would be an obvious effect on water quality when the
A large portion of San O state park (granted as part of the nuke development?) will be closed…. and paved over by the road. Using the San Mateo Campground (if they build around it) will feel like being homeless…. sleeping under an overpass.
I urge everyone to go to Trestles and take the hike from the top of the fence at Cristianitos/El Camino Real… down to the beach, and up to the San Mateo campground… or spend the day at San Onofre state park. Anyone who has a love for California’s natural beauty will quickly see why this area is special. It’d be an absolute shame to have the area tampered with in the interest of poorly designed traffic solution and a housing development.
Just another $.02 from a moderate who hates traffic more than you do, feels that we’re at maximum density as it is, and doesn’t think this extension is remotely a practical solution. Oh yeah, and I love clean water and nice beaches too. :o)
Funny how the poll had something like 800 pro toll-road votes right off the bat!
Looks fishy to me.
The 241 proposed path would:
1 close a state campground
2 cut through an area with endangered species
3 block valuable sediment flow - this is how roads along rivers effect outflow on the beach and the shape of waves
4 this is one of the last remaining sections of coastal wetland with a healthy rivermouth flow, ONCE YOU GIVE THE SPACE AWAY, IT WILL NOT BE RECOVERED.
Wow. Loving the well orchestrated pro-toll road campaing. Nice that you would like to believe that the continuation of the toll road eases any kind of traffic, which it would not. The continuation of the toll road only allows for a continuation of the run-away growth and suburban sprawl that plauges this county. If you don’t believe me check the traffic dump on the 405 where the Newport Coast Toll road merges with the northboud 405 at fairview. Yea, that toll road reeeeally eased traffic there eh? and How about where the 241 dumps into the 91?
where the hell is the long term planning?
Anyone who has been here in excess of 20 years knows what has happened in terms of development outstripping infrastructure, is that the rooftops have preceeded the roads, and that the toll roads are no exception, and definitely no solution…whatso ever.
The TCA shows itself for what it is. A Quasi -private public agency…which is it? who is it beholden to -the bond holder investors or the public? See those tolls going higher? …and who is left paying for the maintenance of the ‘private’ roads? Cal trans? hmmmm
So its clever that all the talk is about those evil NMBY’s at Surfrider…attack the opponents and skip the issue…typical politics in the big city. Although…I will agree: This fight is not about the surfspot…and that part of the surfers vs tollroads conflict is completly off target. This is not the Army Corp of Engineers doing Jetty building….but, this fight is about the ecological system as a whole…already denegraded yes, and all the more reason to preserve the estuary, the sacred spot at San Mateo (the burial grounds and cermonial lands) and the surrounding hills.
We all need to unite and say no more crappy communities, no more idiotic development ventures, and certainly, no more divide and develop transportation policies. Expand and improve the system we have now>>>>and I MEAN NOW!
While the insane traffic may not have deluded anyone from participating in that development that preceeds this, and which is collapsing before your eyes, know that the county has more housing stock than can be absorbed in the next 2 years…and that is outside the REO/Foreclosure deluge…which will continue through the next 6 months unabated.
Think about it people. this is a quality of life issue. This is holding government agencies accountable for preservation of what little is left. It is past time…to get past all the BS and start acting like we deserve to live here.
South county’s traffic mess is an east-west problem. The 241 is a north-south road. People who believe that any road put anywhere is bound to alleviate traffic– somehow– are falling for TCA’s expensive BS.
241 will do nothing to solve current or future OC traffic problems. But TCA’s non compete agreement with Caltrans has done everything to twart traffic planning in South OC.
But stacking every city council in south county with TCA board members they’ve tabled important arterial improvements like Portola Parkway, Oso, and La Pata.
TCA’s first obligation isn’t to the motoring public, it’s to their bond holders. Their priority isn’t improved transportation, it’s pushing through their own roads to raise their own tolls.
Their basic model– toll roads surrounded by a network of freeways– is bogus. They carry only 2 to 18 percent the traffic of parallel freeways, which get more congested because of their political machinations.
As to How 241 will hurt Trestles: The road runs right in the drainage of San Mateo for 6 miles– not just crosses it like the 5 does– and all of the run off will eventually spill into the creek. The “catch basins” they tout will overtop with every major storm. Think about it— they have to. TCA is not going to suck all that collected much out every year.
You Californians are something else you pay more taxes than almost any where else in the country and you still have to pay for your roads? In Virginia we have I believe 3 tolls in the entire state and one of them is for the longest bridge tunnel in the world. The notion that more people live in California than any other state and pay more in taxes than almost every other state makes me think there are some screwballs wasting money and failing to come up with the best possible utilization of funds and resources.
If it didn’t have such wonderful waves, great weather, weird people, good food from around the world and spectacular sun sets I’d keep my ass out of Cali but as it is I’ll be joining your sorry mess soon enough
It is disappointing (although not surprising) that while this form is concerned about traffic congestion, no one in the form has mentioned anything about improving public transportation. Indeed, the majority of respondents seem perfectly content to remain chained to the notion that more roads are the only solution to Orange County’s traffic dilemma. Transportation is a major contributor to environmental destruction. Smog, acid rain, and the increase in lower atmosphere ozone (which damages crops and reduces human immunity to various diseases) are all harmful side effects of transportation pollution. Perhaps those who see the toll road as the only way to improve the traffic situation can take time during their ride home (and I hope they are carpooling and not riding solo so they are doing everything in their power to reduce traffic ) and think of environmentally sound solutions to the potential growth in orange county.
While it is true that traffic on I-5 heading south from OC is bad, and it is also true that we need a solution to this problem, it does NOT follow that a private TOLLROAD cutting through only a portion of the geographical area from which most of this traffic derives, compromising mitigated, public State Park land built by a company with a convenient no-compete clause is the solution!
Really, why do people insist on thinking that this (or widening the 5) is the ONLY solution to lessen traffic congestion on I-5? There are MANY alternatives to this road to nowhere. There are also alternatives to widening the 5. And last but not least, this road wouldn’t link up with the 5 until it has reached well into southern OC. So how, oh how is it expected to solve all of our traffic problems when a lot of the traffic will not even be originating from inland, eastern OC?
You know what this is, right? It’s a convenient way to ensure access to more inland, eastern OC land for development. You think traffic’s bad now? Wait until they build thousands of new homes out there.
And throwing up the argument that the train tracks/trestle or existing freeway already pollutes is a red herring. Pointing out that there may be existing structures that pollute does in NO WAY justify ADDING structures that will pollute.
As for “ruining Trestles,” I don’t think ANYONE knows or can say with 100% certainty what the impacts will be. Maybe the wave won’t be affected, but if you know anything about simple physics, chemistry and geology, you know that a road of this size and design cannot be built without affecting the watershed, creek and water quality. The crux of the matter is that THIS road is NOT needed. It will NOT solve the traffic congestion problem as it currently stands and it is claiming public land for a select group of people who choose to PAY to use it. And that is why I (and many like me) would err on the side of caution and urge others to not support this road.
Maybe we don’t know exactly how the environment will be impacted there (anyone who says there will be zero impact deserves a pie in the face), but believe me when I say, it will be impacted. Why not find an alternative to this road that will actually solve the traffic problem and then you don’t even have to worry how Trestles and the State Beach will or won’t be affected.
Frankly, as an intelligent, responsible steward of this planet, I demand more from our elected and appointed officials. I demand that this road be recognized for what it is (a shameless excuse for the TCA to 1. finish what they’ve tried to start, 2. gain access for developers to undeveloped land and 3. line their pockets by pushing an irresponsibly planned, potentially harmful road) and I demand that the Coastal Commission do the right thing and put this road to rest once and for all and urge them to encourage the development of a road that WILL work toward solving traffic congestion for southern OC and SD counties.
Honestly, how can anyone believe that a road from the Santa Margarita area will solve the congestion on the 5? If anything, it will dump MORE traffic onto the 5 heading toward San Diego (rather than travelling the 15, etc.). To say you’ve looked at the map and don’t see how it would affect the State Park or Trestles (or San Mateo Creek) and to in the same breath proclaim that it will help solve the traffic congestion problems makes me wonder if you’re looking at the same maps I’m looking at. LOL
Dont pave over our last wetland.
No to the toll road! Look at Doheny and see what has happened at the water quality there.
I think it is incredibly disheartening to see that so many people are mindlessly opting for more growth and disturbance to the already stripped landscape of southern California’s hills and coastline. Yes, growth is inevitable but if there is no conservation of open spaces and natural ecosystems what will the future generations have to appreciate? Free flowing traffic… please. I feel sorry for all of you whose thoughts focus solely on your own needs to avoid traffic. Guess what, if growth is inevitable, traffic will be inevitable as well. Have you ever been on the toll road heading south from Bristol around 4pm? The traffic is STILL bad, despite the toll road. The problem is overpopulation, over development , and a lack of truly conscientious citizens. Why aren’t there more efforts to increase reliable and efficient public transit? I encourage you to think about the future generations and preserve the land the toll road is planned to be developed on. SEE YOU AT THE MEETING!
…please don’t ruin Trestles. this toll road will greatly affect the surf break and the entire atmosphere there.
ease traffic? not so much. wouldn’t that road just deposit more cars onto an already packed 5? Oh, maybe someone on their way back to irvine could route through riverside? yeah, that makes sense. I’m shocked at the density of these lame arguments. HHHmmmm, why would the toll road folks hand over 100 million dollars? Because they stand to make 5 time that on this project. Didn’t we used to call those bribes? Wow. Wake up. Guess what goes in next to new roads? yep, fast food spots, gas stations all that cool stuff. Stop letting the people who stand to profit from this road brainwash you. Think about adding all that traffic to the 5 before you think it’s going to help somehow. You ever been on the 55 south when it reaches newport beach?
Hey Troy - Nobody’s listening, of the 12 respondents, you are on there twice… Love to see out in Del Mar and have a few words about “logic”. There we can talk about locomotives and soccer moms’, since those are “logical” reasons as to why the Toll Road should or should not go in. Until then my Volken “logical” friend…
dude, how can you mess with the trestles?
Lets not forget that a construction project of this magnitude will need how many trucks and heavy machinery not too mention outhouses for the workers . I feel that this alone would do harm to the water quality .This is such a beautiful pristine place , one of the last that we have in OC and the thought of it being ruined is appaling !
Please save my Trestles…. STOP SURFING! Thank you!
COME ON PEOPLE! This road is being advocated by people who want to DEVELOP! Ever see the movie “Wag the Dog?” This road will not relieve traffic congestion; it will CREATE MORE by allowing for open space to be sold so that thousands of more people can move to Orange County and continue to devalue your house!!! This little known fact prompted the toll road builders to sell the public a LIE!
Perhaps the NIMBYs who oppose the tollroad extension should be forced to spend one mid Saturday morning heading toward San Diego from the El Toro “Y”, then one late Sunday afternoon in the opposite direction, just to see what the rest of us Orange Countians get to experience when we want to head for San Diego/Mexico for the weekend. Trouble is, most of the opposition already lives far South of the “Y” and couldn’t care less about the people stuck out on the freeway over the weekend. Maybe they should stick their heads out the window to sniff the gas fumes of the stalled traffic. The tollroad extension won’t harm plants, beaches, or wildlife nearly as much as the pollution from said stalled traffic - the NIMBYs know that, but just want to have a cause to squawk about. Growth is real, progress is real. Extend the tollroad - please!
Scientific studies done for and paid for by whom? I can pay for a study that results in any conclusion I want; so stop being a stupid sheep and start using your own brain to figure this out.
The toll road will not ease congestion. Why? Because it’s purpose is to bring access to the pristine foothills to the east of San Clemente so that the Rancho Mission Viejo company can build 40,000 new homes on a huge parcel of land they own and cannot easily access. They tried to strong-arm San Clemente in to providing access via Avenida Pico. Some of these new neighbors in RMV will use the toll road, if built, while most will just add to the congestion of the I-5.
If you want to stop freeway congestion, then stop the ridiculous growth. Don’t provide a means for more unchecked massive growth.
While the surf break at Trestles is a cause dear to surfers, the quality of the water flowing within San Mateo Creek is dear to everyone that frequents that valley and the ocean. I find it absurd that there are actually seemingly intelligent people in Orange County that don’t believe the construction and use of such a freeway will not greatly impact the immediate and surrounding areas. Have you never seen a major road under construction? Is it OK to destroy one of the last remaining unpaved rivers in Southern California just because we have always done it in the past?
This is all about money… money to be made by developers who are buying your land for pennies.
What really burns me is that the state of California is about to sell our State Park to a commercial enterprise, and you are all just willing to let that happen. If it happens, then it sets a precedent that we will not be able to stop; and the fall of other State Parks will follow.
I’m willing to put up with a few extra cars and a few more minutes on the I-5 freeway to preserve what is beautiful, what is ours, what is right. Are you willing to? Or are you just to greedy and self-centered to care?
No new freeway through a STATE BEACH.
This is stealing from the future to fund the already wealthy over paid government contractors.
They bribe government officials, or donate to campaign funds to assure they continue to get funding for more new construction.
The other toll roads do not have the numbers of cars they were planned for. This won’t either.
Why would they want to put a toll road.
Why have state parks if the government will allow developers to develop it? Why have laws if you don’t enforce them? The TCA has continually sought exemptions from the law so that they can build a road that will lose money and not relieve traffic, just like their other toll roads. (This IS what the independent and scientifically valid studies conclude, not what the TCA-funded studies purport)
It’s not about the surf break, it’s about common sense and respecting the laws and parks that have been set aside to for everyone. The toll road will only benefit the rich and have no benefit to me. Worse, it will deprive me and my children forever of some of the only open land left in Orange County. Let’s stop this pimping of public property, now.
There are some things more important than traffic. How can you say adding a major thoroughfare right to the beach won’t affect our coastline? Construction runoff and the changing natural spillways WILL affect our coastline and state park in general will forever be altered for the worse. Building this toll road will only allow more houses to be built in an already overcrowded area and the traffic will be right back to where it is now except you will have to pay for it. Think about something a little more important than your morning commute. Move closer to work or leave earlier. Better yet, how about public transportation? STOP THE TOLL ROAD!
Right on Dina ! You just wrapped it up in a nutshell ! All about the contractors and whose pockets are getting lined with $$
The toll road would affect the amount of eroded soil that would make it to the beach and thus stop filling the rocks on the ocean floor with sand (eroded soil) and thus stop the wave from breaking. Anyone who knows how a road is built is aware of the amount of concrete that would be needed to put a road of this magnitude in. Thus stopping the erosion and the flow of sand to the beach. The runoff from the proposed road has never been the issue and that would never stop the waves from coming, just the surfers or anyone else who enjoys going in the ocean from being able to swim in the ocean and not just at Trestles.
Anyone who says that anyone of us who oppose the toll road and wants to have more traffic has no idea what they are talking about. No one wants to sit in traffic.
There are also other alternatives to this proposed Toll Road then to destroy one of the most famous waves in the world as well as a State Park in the process.
I do understand the need to alleviate traffic on the 5 as it is ridiculously absurd. We really need to look at the most environmentally protective way to do this and the 241 is not the best solution. It seems that most of the people for this project are one minded and need to open up their views on this issue as making your commute shorter is not the only problem here.
The toll road is a necessary component to completion for an already planned and approved arterial to a master planned system. As a South OC resident and daily user of the 73 freeway, I can attest to the success of the additional route to central OC and beyond. Without completion, the 241 dumps all the intended traffice on to South OC surface streets. And as a surfer and a realistic environmentalist, the final leg of the 241 will have limited effect on terrain and no effect on the beach itself.
Trestles is to the beach and surfing population, what Yosemite is to John Muir and Ansel Adams. Why destroy the Crown Jewel of California surfing? Yes giant cassions and conrete pillars through a state park and marshlands will destroy the break and the beach. This tollroad is not about easing traffic, its about developers having more access to land so they can build more houses.
Honestly people, are any of you who support teh toll road ever in the water. We surfers are in the water everyday and make a living that way. The road will eventually stop being cleaned, and the oil and such from cars left of the road will drain down into the ocean. This is how I make my living, surfing proffesionally, and the water at Trestles is the cleanest we have around. It can be “promised” to be kept clean, but we all know after a stint of cleaning, it will stop. Before you worry more about your convienance of saving a few minutes on the way to work, think about the people who make thier living in what the water will become. Would you want somebody coming to your place of work and applying a coat of oil over everything in your work environment? Seriously, pull yourself away from your comfort zone for a moment and think about what it would be like to have to make a living in an environment that progressivly declines in quality. Not to mention the pollution that is missed by the supposed “cleaning crews” that would change the flow af water, altering the way the wave at Trestles breaks, therefore altering the amount of economic profit made from traveling surfers. I would love to see some feedback from this.
The 241 toll road will not be good for San Onofre State Park. If it is approved, during its construction, sediment will work its way down to the ocean, which will affect the wave at Trestles which attracts thousands of surfers each year. There are also at least 11 endangered species that could possibly become extinct due to the effects of the 241. It would also ruin the natural beauty of the state park. Who would want to go camping in a park overrun with noise from traffic on the toll road? It would totally spoil San Onofre for surfers, campers, hikers, nature enthusiasts, and the plants and animals that call the park home. By the way, the real problem does not lie on Interstate 5. It lies 35 miles north of San Onofre, in Santa Ana. The problem is illegal immigration and the resulting “white flight”. Starting in the 1970s and continuing through the ’80s and ’90s into today, droves of illegal immigrants, mostly from Mexico, have poured into cities like Santa Ana and Anaheim, and more recently Costa Mesa, Orange, and Fullerton, leading to a massive exodus of whites out of those cities, especially Santa Ana, into South County. Santa Ana was 70 percent white in 1970, but now it is just 10 percent. Its Hispanic population was just 25 percent in 1970, but it has soared to 80 percent today. Its school district’s student enrollment is 92 percent Hispanic, and very little English is spoken at many schools. There are an estimated 150,000 illegal immigrants in the city, making up over 40% of Santa Ana’s population. If not for the massive influx of illegals and racist whites who flee when just a couple Mexicans move in, South County would still be largely open hillsides and agricultural fields as it was in the 1960s. Almost all of Orange County’s population would be in North County, and from Santa Ana to San Diego would be pretty much open space with a few small towns in between. So, in essence, without the illegal “invasion” of North County, a drive on I-5 south of Santa Ana would pass through orange groves and undeveloped hills. No Irvine. No Laguna Niguel or Mission Viejo. But the illegals are not totally the blame. Racist Whites who cannot tolerate a thimble of minorities in their communities who ran out of Santa Ana, afraid that Mexicans, who made up barely one quarter of the population at the time, would prey on them and burglarize their homes. This led to massive urban sprawl, extra smog emissions, and bumper-to-bumper traffic on I-5 and 55, which led to the construction of the 73, 261,133, and 241 toll roads and left the door open for this environmentally-destructive 241 extension connecting with I-5. I think the INS should just go to every housing unit in Santa Ana and Anaheim and check the people’s citizenship status and deport all the illegal immigrants back to their home countries. That way, all the whites who fled for South County to escape Mexicans can return to their old North County homes. Of course, there will still be Hispanics in those cities, but they would be American citizens. But would those racist whites even want to live around Mexican-Americans who have lived here for generations, who are often middle-class with college educations? That is a question. The solution is removing the illegal immigrants from North County cities, which caused the white flight in the first place, not serving and contributing to more white flight by building the 241 toll-road.
I am absolutely for this extention. Traffic is horrendous without it.
The extention of the 241 is necessary to eleviate traffic on the 5 S and the Ortga Highway and Antonio Highway
As much as I would love to see less traffic in San Clemente and along the 5, this is not the answer. The fact that the 241 South will have an impact on Trestles AND run right through San Mateo Campground is not the only reason opponents feel so strongly against this part of the toll road. The new extension would open up all the land behind San Clemente for development which is what we do not need. The 241 South will not ease traffic on the 5. It will ADD traffic to the 5 because of all the new development behind San Clemente. Look at the 73. How many people use that compared to the 5! A VERY small percentage of commuters. It can’t even pay for itself. There’s a better solution that won’t destroy some of the last beautiful, pristine, open coastal space in Southern California.
The toll road is planned to go through a state park and a nature preserve. These lands were set aside for all to enjoy and represent some of the last public open spaces in the area. Greedy politicians and developers see our land as an opportunity to make money at our expense. State parks and nature preserves should be protected, not paved.
Please Save the Beach ….Thanks for the opportunity to have a voice!
This is one of the last preserved beaches in the State of California. Why chose to ruin in like Laguna Beach once their toll road came in? Corona del Mar? Ask any of those residents if the toll road improved or affected their future in a negative way. The toll road only brings additional traffic and trash to a beach that is is so well preserved and kept by those who currently use and appreciate it.
Perhaps 50% of all tolls can be contributed to ocean education and preservation? I do not see that offer anywhere……….hmmm.
It would appear that this “vote” has a flaw or two - namely, no control as to how many votes can originate from just one computer. Two hours ago, when I made a post above, the pro tollroad vote total was about 100 more than the anti tollroad vote. Now, like magic, the pro number is somewhat higher than before, but about 500 “votes” less than the anti number. Sounds like a couple of people have been voting more than once, for the anti crowd. What a bunch of tree-hugging gnat-catcher loving dingbats. Too bad for them, that they won’t be able to clone themselves for the big meeting next week. Oh, right! They might have to take a highway to get there. Of course they could make it by walking along the train tracks that were here before there WAS a state beach - if they start now.
Doheny at Dana Point was my favorite beach when I was a kid. They turned it into a boating harbor and ruined the original beauty of that place. I was really saddened and hurt by that. Now they want to destroy another spot. When will they stop doing this? If these people surfed or used these areas for pleasure and recreation they wouldn’t touch it. However, they’re just developers looking for a way to make a million and share the spoils with other people in their field. Our government loves to kiss up to whoever,s willing to share a buck with them……
The 5 freeway already goes through this STATE BEACH with no one complaining about that. And what about the environmental impact of all those cars sitting idle in traffic burning fossil fuels? Where is the enviro-opposition to relieve that problem?
Any sensible individual can look at the history of the opposition, the route the proposed extension takes, and the benefit this road will provide and realize that this toll road needs to be built.
As for the enviro-turnout in Del Mar… that is completely skewed, because the people who actually have jobs and aren’t living off of trust funds or sales of half-baked “art-craft” (ie. the ones who would actually be using the toll road) will be busy working for a living instead of showing up to protest a bunch of nonsense.
Save the Wave!!
There are very few people who are going from North San Diego out to the Riverside area. The money would be far better spent widening the I-5 freeway.
The developers are the ones wanting the 241, so they can blanket the mountains in South OC. With the new Toll Road there may be a short respite until the new homes go in. Soon after, the freeways will be worse and the local towns saturated. We have already seen what the developers have done to Orange County in the last 25 years,
let’s don’t be fooled into thinking that this time it will be different.
Of course we need the #241 Tollway to be completed! The gridlock on the #5 freeway is intolerable, the #241 completion will provide an alternate route in case of emergency, and it will provide a much needed highway to accommodate the additional traffic from projected homes to be built in the San Clemente area. The #241 completion is long overdue. The Coastal Commission is encouraged to pass it and get on with building the highway.
I’m not in favor of expanding the toll road
This will impact Trestles and more importantly the San O’ state beach because of the impact that the new road will have on the river bed in that portion of the state park. When the opposition to the toll road say “save trestles” it is not entirely to save the wave, it is to save the precious grounds that surround it. Sure there are a few that are only interested with the wave, but the majority want to save the whole site.
In the glorified concrete jungle that is now southern california, coastal preserves such as that surrounding Trestles are rare. And if the state allows a road to begin to ruin that, where is it to stop. And if Californians pride themselves on being the newest, latest and hippest people in the nation, then why would they want to set a precedent for all other states that it is okay to build on a state park. Should we put a bridge over the Grand Canyon just because it eased traffic? No, it is our responsibility to preserve these few landmarks left in our beloved California.
If anything, if we build this road, do not ask what will it hurt, but what will it accomplish? besides making your commute on I-5 ten minutes instead of thirty. Who cares if you need a little more time to get to work in the morning? if anything, take that time to look over to the ocean and enjoy that preserve at Trestles. Maybe walk the trail or surf a wave while you daydream in traffic. Even if the toll road is built, that will fill up eventually, and then what will we do? build another one?
It’s difficult to fight the huge money the TCA throws at its ad campaigns and lobbying in Sacramento, especially when they refer to those in South Orange County who oppose it as “crazies” - did they also call the airport opponents “crazies”? After several victories by the Save Trestles campaign in 2007, the Coastal Commission Hearing is shaping up as the key showdown in 2008 relating to this event. Several significant lawsuits attacking the EIR and other facets of the proposed extension are underway, approval of other federal and state agencies is still required and by no means assured, and the collapse of the housing market will likely discourage bondholders from financing the toll road for several years. Nevertheless, following our Governor’s belated decision in recent days to change his position on the road extension. This decision was really driven by CA’s significant current budget woes, with an
eye to capture a $100 million outright bribe to the CA State Parks
Commission to sacrifice the San Mateo watershed and San O/Trestles for this ill-advised road ($12-$15 each way to use) which will not relieve any current traffic but will open up the hills behind Ladera Ranch for an additional 14000-19000 future homes (which themselves will bring a very significant amount of new traffic to South County). And so the cycle continues until we pave over every square inch of OC…..if we build more roads, we’ll build more homes, then we’ll need to build more roads, and so on! It’s hard not to notice that we have so very little remaining open space areas in OC, and we cannot forget that ultimately it is our choice whether to permit it or not. Santa Barbara, San Diego and even LA (Malibu Canyons) have all taken a stance to protect portions of their precious
coastline and irreplaceable open spaces, why shouldn’t Orange County preserve a small share of those as well?
Why is this conversation not about the giving away of a public resource? This is one of the most visited State Parks in CA. Make TCA BUY the land for their PRIVATE TOLL ROAD with PRIVATE DOLLARS at market value.
This should be something both side of the argument (build/not-build) should agree upon. TCA should not be handed MY public park land to build a private road.
Damn it.
I agree that traffic is an issue and transportation needs to be improved. But destroying 60% of a state park to build a road is not necessary. I work hard so I can play hard and I am not in favor of destroying our playgrounds. The train system can be improved. The I-5 can be widened and improved. I think building over our protected natural spaces is not a very forward thinking solution. Everyone who is contributing to new development needs to very concerned with sustainability. This is not a long term solution.
I think that would help to release the traffic a lot
I’m an avid Trestles surfer. Please do build the road but keep it farther south and east of Trestles and San-O. Thanks.
I’m sorry i don’t live there so it’s quite easy to give an opinion for an outsider but can you imagine year 2050 ? concrete everywhere, is it clever to promote pollution? i think future for the mankind comes to stop building and start re-organising what we have to take intelligent profit of what’s already done, if not we’ll have to run away from this planet someday.
Time for the involutionary movement
The toll road will damage the fragile wetland environment. please reconsider.
save please!
Why cant you just leave things as they are, do we have to uproot and change everything just for the sake of progress?
Toll roads are a trend which enables government to abdicate responsibility for developing adequate infrastructure. We cannot scale freeways indefinitely, transportation experts know this. This toll road is a temporary solution which includes almost zero incentive for getting people out of their Single Occupancy Vehicle. People care about time, which is why so many support additional roads - but it is a false economy. I might support this toll road if the funds were matched by government to build highly scalable transportation systems; that would reduce my concerns to the environmental ones.
rfrider were not so bloody lazy e.g spending their whole time annoying people on the internet and looking up bellybutton sites, perhaps they might have made more headway with their campaign. I think the toll road is a great idea!!! Less beaches=less really annoying hippy surfers! YAAAAYYY!
I am saddened by the failure of Orange County residents to recognize the existence of a sacred Acjachemen village site called Panhe in the area where the toll road is proposed. For more than 1,000 years, the Acjachemen inhabited this site. Panhe is listed as a district in the National Register of Historic Places. The village site includes a large Native American cemetery, and remains of indigenous ancestors from other California tribes that have been moved from their original resting places due to development have been recovered and reburied at Panhe. Protect this site as well as Trestles. Stop the toll road!
IT IS REDICULOUS TO MOVE THIS SLOW. IT IS AS BAD AS THE DAYS OF JERRY BROWN AS GOVENOR, AND ADRIANA GIANTERCO IN CHARGE OF TRANSPORTATION. THEIR IDEA FOR RESTRAINIG GROWTH WAS TO NOT BUILD FREEWAYS . ‘ DO NOT BUILD THEM AND THEY WILL NOT COME.’ BECAUSE OF THIS PHILOSIPHY WE ARE STILL YEARS BEHIND IN OUR TRANSPORTATION SYSTEM.
Not only are we missing the point of ruining Tresles, but what about all the natural land in between? We have been getting along fine without another pay to drive road being installed in our kid’s, kid’s future. Why must we continue to dig up our beautiful terrain to be more convenient? take you time-inlanders slow the heck down and beach goers-REPECT our lands. Preservation instead of convenience!
Wow, it is amazing how distorted most of these comments are. How much does the TCA pay people to write such nonsense? Did you people drink purple koolaid? Or is the TCA serving it up on the 6th? This toll road will do absolutely nothing to relieve traffic. How bout ponying up $14 each way once its built. I’d bet none of you who have contributed to this blog will be using that road at all! Save the state park for your grandkids and wake up and do your homework.
I read over the responses above, and there seems to be a lot of questioning about how this road will impact Trestles. The way it will impact the break is by sediment flow from the river. There is a very fine line you can not cross so that Uppers and Lowers are not damaged, sand wise. With the proposed Toll Road there would be significant sand flow disruption. But aside from the sand flow and the imense amount of trash that would accompany any road there, the precident of putting a road through the middle of a State park is unheard of. Putting a road through a State Park and Campground is not something any of us want. Combine that with the increased trash, and the disruption of sand flow, and you have a recipe for disaster. Please do your research on this and look closely at results and you will see that this is a bad idea for Orange County. There was one comment about why an issue involving Orange County is having a meeting in San Diego County. The reason, Trestles is in San Diego County. The Orange County line stops before Trestles, and technically the break and the roads sit inside the SD County line.
The San Mateo Watershed is the most pristine, natural coastal valley remaining in Southern California. We do not need to ruin it with a freeway when the alternative of widening I-5 exists. We certainly do not need to ruin a state park, the 5th most popular in the system, nor do we need to alter the sediment flow down the creek, which will alter and damage the bottom contour along the beaches, and thus the quality of the waves. Also, the Surfrider Foundation is a highly reputable organization, hardly one that lies and cheats to gain membership, as “Don” stated. If only the TCA and the development community (in general) would be so sincere. For example, consider the two alternatives in the poll taken on this website: ease traffic or harm trestles. That’s how the manipulative people at TCA want us to think, but isn’t the real issue: ease traffic or destroy a pristine California State Park (of which Trestles is a part)? Who wrote that question? Hardly an unbiased editor for the OC Register!
As a result of receiving a request to come and vote for the Toll Road from a real estate industry group I’ve been reading some of the comments written and thought I’d chime in with my own. First I’ll start with my qualifications. I am a member of the develepment community who happens to have close family members that work in conservation, so I have a unique perspective.
I’ll start with scientific studies to validate projects. Here is how the world works. If you are a consultant that puts together environmental reports that recommend not going forward with projects, you do not get assignments and consequently you don’t get paid.
Second, if you don’t think that running a freeway through a watershed is bad for that watershed, I believe you are letting your bias cloud your logic. I’m sure that everyone understands that water runs down hill and it just so happens that Trestles is the final dumping point for this particular watershed. Freeways pollute, pure and simple. How many of you are interested in living next to a freeway? Why? Because freeways are noisy, the air quality is bad, they collect oil and tire waste, and litter. When it rains, all of this flows downhill.
It may be that relieving traffic is a greater good than protecting a state park and the watershed. But, I think it is ridiculous to state that adding a freeway will not damage the surrounding environment.
Just some food for thought.
It’s not just about the road or the surf break. There is only one reason the 241 is being rammed down our throats - so Rancho Mission Viejo’s proposed 10,000 homes can be developed on ranch land that is not accessible to freeways. This land was zoned agricultural, but somehow managed to have their zoning changed to high density residential. 73 equaled Aliso Viejo development. Northern 241 equaled RSM, Ladera Ranch and Foothill Ranch development. No toll road means no access and lower density development. Toll Road equals more development and traffic. All of which will tax water, electricity, sewage treatment, schools and TRAFFIC.
Think beyond Trestles everyone…. what is the result of this expanded highway? Gas stations, fast food chains, tract homes and industry in one of the only “virgin” areas of SoCal. The USMC owns most of the land, with the Irvine Company (Hwy 73 tollroad), buying as fast as they can.
The only reason to do this road is to feed the rampant over- suburbanizing of So-Cal. Where will these people who might drive this highway be going? I work and travel this area all the time and neither the communities nor the areas buisnesses need it.
Ask yourselves why WE should PAY to build this road to line someones pockets?
Do not build Toll Freeway, E.J. Paumier
No ugly highways please. save our world
I think the issue with the tollroad and Trestles has more to do with keeping the “909′ers” from having better access (and therefore more surfers out in the lineup) than any real effect on the erosion patterns that feed the shore contours there.
That being said, there is no denying that the amount of harmful chemicals in the water will increase dramatically if the tollroad is extended due to the runoff bringing the waste from so many more cars down through the canyon and out to the ocean.
I’m not particular about the toll road extension either way, but I think that suburban sprawl needs to be halted and we need to focus on higher density and mixed use redevelopment. That will ease traffic and still keep our green areas close enough to enjoy.
although my occupation as a licensed California architect is dependent on development, I believe that this type of development is poorly conceived.
the 241 and 73 toll roads demonstrate the type of development that we can expect from these transportation agencies.
they are both slabs of pavement slicing through pristine environments.
it is possible to add roads in an aesthetically pleasing manner, evidenced by the freeway widening in Santa Barbara.
this improvement incorporates sensitive landscaping and retaining walls that enhances the built environment.
i believe that adding another separate highway at this location, will only serve to collect additional traffic and dump it into a location that is ill equipped to handle it.
Instead of relieving traffic in San Clemente, this will increase the traffic on the San Clemente to Oceanside corridor of 5 freeway south.
No more toll roads.
Public transportation is what Orange County needs.
Meets both sides.
Good for the environment. Reduces congestion.
Only way to meet expected growth.
Can’t pave everything. Can’t have 30 lane freeways.
For example, see every other city in the world.
We need to improve I-5, not build a toll road through a state park.
This is the most oddly worded poll I have ever seen. It’s obvious the mainstream media is in the pockets of the private company called the TCA. Whether you surf or not, lets face it. The only thing that matters to these people is money,,, now. The message has been the same for forty years in Orange County. “Just one more road, just one more tract”. Well, when it’s all paved over and there is no place to go play, it’s the little guy who suffers. The guys who took your public land will be off in their jet. Please vote no on this unprecedented greed. When it’s gone, it’s gone…
Surfrider is a group dedicated to the preservations of WAVES for surfing. Please remember that though they are speaking only of Trestles, there are a multitude of other impact issues yet to arise.
Trestles is but a metaphor for the bigger picture.
How Selfish can you be? The EIR that was done was flawed, the coastal commission recognized this and wouldn’t approve the road. But hold on sorry folks, I want to make your 45 minute commute in your gas guzzling SUV better. I’ve got news, this road isn’t going to mitigate the 6,000 people a day who move to the coast in the US. You’re going to turn your backyard into Los Angeles, then wonder why your kid gets sick from the runoff into the estuary. You want your cake and you want to eat it too. Guess what will be built on the other end of the road, more tract homes with more cars, and pretty soon the toll road will be jammed as well..and for what, so that in 2009 you can spend 5 less minutes on the freeway? Have some integrity, stand up for the animals and plants and even humans affected by this project, or support it because hey, you need to get your kid to soccer practice 5 mintues faster…
No!! No Toll Road! This will destroy one of the few remaining historical sites of California’s Indigenous nations. KEEP THE THE TOLL ROAD AWAY FROM “PANHE.”
This is California, we have “freeways.” No toll roads. Why don’t you have the voting option of “Against Toll Roads.” You don’t give us very many vote/polling options.
Here is a good idea, stop commuting 60 miles each way to work. I moved here from CO, and I got a place 5 minutes from work. I don’t even use the freeway, except on the weekend to go see something. Everybody moves out in the boonies so they can afford 2 more bedrooms they don’t use, and more space to pile up junk they don’tneed, then get on message boards and bitch how bad the traffic is that they cause.You complain about the cost of tolls and gas too, all the while driving an SUV that gets 12 mpg. I don’t get it. You are the problem. It’s funny, nobody complains that Starbucks coffee is 98% milk and costs 38.00 a gallon or more. Government needs to put a 5.00 a gallon tax on gas, and use the money to educate our kids, so they don’t grow up dumber than the generation before. I work a hitech job, and I am the only American there. India, China, and eve Vietnam are kicking our lazy, Starbucks drinking, bike helmet wearing, brand name clothes wearing stupid overprotectied kids butts. The higher gas would stop the 60 mile commuters, you would move close to work, problem solved, and your kid might be able to compete against the Indian guy I sit next to, that had to learn english and move 4500 miles, and now makes more than 90% of your dumb American educated selves.
Your all crazy, why do we need this toll? In 25 years I have never seen traffic going through camp pendelton or San Clemente, the traffic usually starts in the Dana point area and quickly clears up anyway, if anything the 405 needs a toll road, not the most mellow part of the I-5. What am I missing here?? It really is humerous to me that they want to build a toll road where it is least needed in Southern California.
Oh this on going saga! People complain about the dirty trestle and the train that travels on it. People are right, that trestle is dirty and the train too is dirty…..so why should we add to it. So thru the rocket sceintests who have discovered that the trestle is dirty they use that as a battle point. So by comparison they believe that adding more cars to an area that is already dirty is a better idea. The Toll road taking these people to San Diego from the inland area and to the inland area from San Diego just adds to the mess. If these people really wanted better traffic conditions why wouldnt they move to San Diego so they wouldnt have to sit in the traffic they cry about? And What emergency would you need the toll road for? This emergancy deal is a lame excuse. Nobody lives where the toll road meets the 5 until Oceanside. I couldnt imagine a reason why people that far south would head north when they are probably better off heading East during an emergancy.
Where there are roads MORE cars will come. I am yet to see any area where MORE cars are introduced and it becomes a cleaner area. MORE CARE = MORE PEOPLE = MORE TRASH!!!!!
I will take on anyones challange via email at funtimes311@gmail.com
I will only reply to people that have the ability to use logic.
*CARS in place of CARE
The Toll Road will have far worse ramifications for the surrounding land, not just the surf. Putting a highway through a state park can only damage the surrounding it. There is no need to endanger Southern Californias LAST pristine coastal watershed.
If there is such a dire need to have a new road to relieve the traffic (which is never that bad anyway) then lets have our government suck it up and put one of the many alternatives in. Not a private sector!!! Who will be able to afford a $12 toll road anyways!
Just because you can’t see pollution doesn’t mean it’s not there….the toll road would bring that pollution closer to the beach….if people are so concerned with traffic why don’t more commuters carpool? Not only would that ease traffic…..it would reduce pollution as well. Maybe that’s too simple of a solution for most.
If you can get to the surfline.com website go check the artist renderings of before and after the toll road extension and tell me again about how little effect it will have on Trestles and the whole San Mateo watershed. The renderings were done with the TCA’s own specs.
The most tragic thing about it is that both the 73 and 241 are currently failures. It costs about $12 to go the current total back and forth on the 241 and 90% of the time at least it is like having your own road with almost noone in sight even. This is about money not need.
As far current congestion is concerned. The most the 5 needs is to extend the carpool lanes all the way through. It just aint that crowded folks.
NO TOLL ROAD.
Selling off public (State Park) land for a toll road is a precedent we should not start.
Has anyone taken a look at the traffic on the 55/91 freeway lately? The other portion of the 241 has not relieved any congestion on the 5 or 55. Wondering why people think this extension will help in any way? When tolls are $12-$15 each way, people will still be driving on I5.
The only answer is to improve PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION and get people off the roads.
Quote:
“I checked out the Toll Road website and the alignment of this new freeway. Honestly, for the life of me I can not figure out how this would impact Trestles beach one bit…..The argument that Trestles will be “ruined” just doesn’t stand up to logic and facts.”
It appears from reading the comments that many do not understand the situation. As a local San Clemente resident who is informed on the California Coastal Commisions impact study, please allow me to explain how the Toll Road project affects the Trestles surf break:
Damage will be caused not due to the proximity of the toll road to the beach, but rather the effect that constuction of footings and risers inland which are proposed inside the San Juan Creek Bed that sends inland watershed runoff to Trestles. The CCC’s study shows that major ecological changes in both water and sedimental runoff into the ocean will greatly impact the sandbar formation and sediment bed in the Trestles area. These sandbars and natural runoff are responsible for the formation of coastal waves in the area.
While you may not be a surfer, and might argue that this does not affect you personally, please keep in ind that once this great surf break is gone - there is no reclaiming it. Think about the thousands of kids who enjoy surfing as a healty form of recreation and community. What will they do in the future - join a gang for “fun and recreation?”
On the financial front, the City of San Clemente and it’s businesses will be greatly impacted, as the income created by thousands of out-of-area visitors will diminsh. Finally, the study has shown that the Toll road extension will hardly serve to alleviate traffic on I-5 in any measureable way. Widening I-5 to accomodate modern traffic, or even “double-decking” it along this stretch would serve much better over the long term.
Personally, I believe we have one of the greatest resources to resolve the traffic problem close at hand: Camp Pendleton. Alternate routes could easily be constructed (by armed forces personnel), stretching down the coast, - and even inland. This could also fulfill the need for aditional arteries to the Temecula and Elsinore valley areas. Pendleton is expansive, and can easily sacrifice the small amount of acreage needed in order to meet the needs of a growing southland.
Please vote NO on the Toll Road extension, as it is merely a band-aid that will soon fall off. Above all, please think of the environment - and the future generations who will be affected by these changes.
“I don’t understand how this new inland road will ‘mess up’ Trestles. The road will be nowhere near the sand, let alone the surf. ”
Because it’s not all inland. It connects to the I-5 right near the beach. But that’s not the biggest problem. It that this stupid road (which won’t do anything to ease traffic on I-5, by the way) runs right along San Mateo Creek for miles. San Mateo Creek, one of the last unpolluted creeks/watersheds in SoCal drains to the beach at Trestles. So if they bulldoze the state park, including the creek, to build this un-needed toll road it will screw up the sediment flow from the creek to the beach which will, in turn, degrade the quality of the waves. And then, of course, there’s the little problem of all the highway noise, exhaust fumes, and filthy highway runoff that will flow into the creek and eventually out into the ocean, polluting and ruining both the creek and the beach. I hope that helps clear up your confusion.
Please Deny The South Orange County 241 Toll Road Extension Project
Quote:
“I checked out the Toll Road website and the alignment of this new freeway. Honestly, for the life of me I can not figure out how this would impact Trestles beach one bit…..The argument that Trestles will be “ruined” just doesn’t stand up to logic and facts.”
It appears from reading the comments that many do not understand the situation. As a local San Clemente resident who is informed on the California Coastal Commision’s impact study, please allow me to explain how the Toll Road project affects the Trestles surf break:
Damage will be caused not due to the proximity of the toll road to the beach, but rather the effect that construction of footings and risers inland which are proposed inside the San Juan Creek Bed that sends inland watershed runoff to Trestles. The CCC’s study shows that major ecological changes in both water and sedimental runoff into the ocean will greatly impact the sandbar formation and sediment bed in the Trestles area. These sandbars and natural runoff are responsible for the formation of coastal waves in the area.
While you may not be a surfer, and might argue that this does not affect you personally, please keep in ind that once this great surf break is gone - there is no reclaiming it. Think about the thousands of kids who enjoy surfing as a healthy form of recreation and community. What will they do in the future - join a gang for “fun and recreation?”
On the financial front, the City of San Clemente and it’s businesses will be greatly impacted, as the income created by thousands of out-of-area visitors will diminish. Finally, the study has shown that the Toll road extension will hardly serve to alleviate traffic on I-5 in any measurable way. Widening I-5 to accommodate modern traffic, or even “double-decking” it along this stretch would serve much better over the long term.
Personally, I believe we have one of the greatest resources to resolve the traffic problem close at hand: Camp Pendleton. Alternate routes could easily be constructed (by armed forces personnel), stretching down the coast, - and even inland. This could also fulfill the need for additional arteries to the Temecula and Elsinore valley areas. Pendleton is expansive, and can easily sacrifice the small amount of acreage needed in order to meet the needs of a growing southland.
Please vote NO on the Toll Road extension, as it is merely a band-aid that will soon fall off. Above all, please think of the environment - and the future generations who will be affected by these changes.
I am absolutely IN FAVOR of extending the 241 tollroad in order to reduce congestion & traffic from our OC freeway system.
Let’s Roll
SAVE TRESTLES…STOP THE TOLL ROAD!
It is for sure a hot topic!! Its amazes me that some new residents of San Clemente are in favor of the toll road!! I read some of the comments and I wonder why they came here in the first place; I believe it was because we have places such as Trestles, San Mateo Camp Ground, and some other open spaces only left in this end of the coast. The reason we are against it is very simple: the excuse presented by the builders makes no sense!! I do not believe it will easy traffic at all, it will contribute for more traffic in couple years because more houses will be build!! Not to mention that crime will increase. There are many problems that our nation is facing at this time because politicians have become corrupts and just look for their pockets and not to their constituents! I vote for Arnold and I’m disappointed with his change of mind on the issue . For the ones bashing Surfrider Foundation you should be ashamed of yourselves!!!
As a legal immigrant and a citizen of this great country disturbs me to see what is going on at many levels of our country at this time! PLEASE COME TO THE MEETING AND SHOW SUPPORT AGAINST THE TOLL ROAD!! Let’s show the politicians that we as the people have power over their agenda!
The only ones that will gain from this tollroad are the developers. It will not relieve traffic, it will create more. If the toll road is completed, the developers will take action and start packing in more homes-more cars-more pollution!! Please stop this madness, enough is enough. The toll road will bisect not one, but two areas that were promised as open space, never to be developed. We need to stand up and protect what little is left, please don’t let greed win again!
the last thing socal needs is another bloody freeway!!!
Please complete the 241 tollroad. We desperately need an alternative to get to and from south county.
I must say that the vast majority of you people are bumbling, self-important, careless idiots. All you people are worried about is the present, and your own well-being. This entire debate is a microcosm of our disgusting, dysfunctional society, and it truly makes me sick to read about how much you feel that you need another road… in Southern California! Maybe you should start addressing the real issues, the causes of these problems you feel that you’ve got, and stop looking for a short term, effortless fix. All you people railing for the toll road probably take those diet pills that advertise by telling you that you don’t have to do anything to lose weight.
I’ve read that many of you are concerned about the possibility of your escape if/when a major disaster requiring a mass exodus from the San Clemente area occurs. It has been noted that the existing evacuation route would not accomodate the large numbers of human parasites who will be attempting to flee the scene of a major disaster in this area, and a new toll road might remedy this potentially nasty situation.
My response to that selfish line of thinking is as follows… First, a new toll road will probably improve any traffic congestion, especially in an emergency situation. However, you people will still have major problems and suffer catastrophic losses even with a new toll road, given a worst-case-scenario event like the ones you fear. Second, perhaps your ridiculous overpopulation of the state could be eased by a large die-off due to the motorists who will inevitably perish in traffic given that doomsday nightmare… now think of how much more pressure could be released from the powder keg that is Southern California’s overpopulation without the proposed toll road.
In all seriousness, today it’s a toll road, but what will it be tomorrow? This is nothing more than a weak attempt at addressing the symptoms of your/our problems (at the expense of the natural world), while ignoring the cause. What are you going to do 20 years from now when your overpopulation necessitates yet another road… or many more? Will you pull the blinders over your eyes once again, and use the same old whiny excuse that, “We need it, what are we supposed to do? …My SUV only gets 5 miles to the gallon, and I can’t afford to waste al my gas sitting in traffic! Whaaaaaa!”
Wake up, derelicts.
Can someone explain why Trestles was not destroyed 50 yrs ago when the freeway was built? Maybe because it just a bridge and its not on the beach anyway. A few more lanes over the river and a clear road going north thru south Orange County are very important to quality of life. Trestles will be fine. They are not paving the beach. Argue truthfully.
People are in great great danger if this toll road were to happen. My father who has passed would have tears coming from his eyes. The destruction of sacred land needs to stop being viewed as progress. There is no turning back once this moves forward, the slippery slope will be weight on our shoulders when the generation to come wil be deprived of its beauty.
This toll road proposal is a very BAD idea and must not be built. It will destroy a state park, which we must save and we must value our NATURAL resources. Roads can be built other places. Look at the empty 76. We must think environmentally and globally from now on and act on what’s best for our planet!
The reality is simple. There will be no opportunity to ease traffic…it will only bottleneck up the 241 and further congest the 5 fwy. just past San Clemente. The bottom line is that the only real ease to congestion will come from widening the 5 fwy. going South through the base. This toll road will take the peaceful excperience away from Tretles forever. What is even more devastating is knowing that if this toll road is built I will never be able to share the amazing experience of the area with my children. Maybe society needs to SLOW down and enjoy life a little bit more instead of demanding yet another quick fix that will only create more traffic and last but a few years after it is completed…only to find out we need even more lanes and another toll road/fwy.
This “toll” will dismember the natural habitat and polute further the surroundings of Trestles. Stop it now!
With any luck at all, the surfers who are oppossed to the toll road will have such disdain for the toll road (if approved) that they will find a new surf spot because they can not stand the sight of the roadway. I can’t wait for the day to be able to surf Trestles without a crowd! Go toll road!
Anti-toll road remarks posted here by the anti-everything surfer folks only proves that they didn’t bother to learn the true details of the project. What makes these play and party types think they own all they survey?
the toll road will mess it up. troy doesnt know what he is talking about. SAVE TRESLES!
Interesting to note that with the extension of the toll road comes a “non-competition” clause with Cal-Trans that prevents any further ‘improvement’ to the I-5 corridor once the toll road extension is built, so that the private interests can recover their investment in the toll road. Don’t believe that the TCA is about ‘cleaning up’ the I-5 or that its promises to do everything in its power to avoid impact to San Mateo Creek and the State Park.
I encourage the proponents of the 241 South extension to consider seriously the irrevocable loss of a beautiful state park for a new toll road, which won’t address all of the traffic issues you complain of; the lack of improvements to the I-5 ‘free’ way that will result with the extension, the fabulous success (?) that is the 73 toll-road, which can’t pay for itself despite bumper to bumper traffic on the 405 which it was designed to alleviate, and the incessant increases in tolls on the 91 TCA lanes.
This extension is about the TCA doing what it does, build toll roads and collect for them, and not about easing your commute or making your life better. There are alternatives, that the TCA has pooh-poohed, because they believe its easier to steal this state park, and set a dangerous precedent.
To Troy: put the toll road in YOUR backyard if you think its going to be so clean and desirable, NOT in OUR state park.
Paving over a state park for any reason is not right.
Aside from the surfing community, think of the average citizen who can’t hike or camp or simply get away from the concrete because their refuge has just become more concrete.
I am very suprised by how many people are really saying they want this road to be built. I dont know what it looks like in Cali , but here in Jersey we have roads everywhere. Too many roads. Too many people. The roads are not to ease congestion, they are to build a path to more housing and development. Are we going to pave our whole nation because of our population growth. NO!!! We must stand up to this nonsense. I saw one persons comment, I would rather be at home with my family then be stuck in traffic. Take a bus, taxi, train, carpool. The enviornment can only take so much. We must speak on its behalf or no one will. The road is a bad idea, it will impact the surrounding habitat and destroy more precious land you and I hold dear. Dont believe our government , believe your hearts. If you dont care for our earth and wildlife, it is not my fault you are not cool. Get your facts straight we are destroying our planet , whether you think so or not. More roads = more cars = more polution = warmer earth = rising sea levels = more powerful storms = more landslides = more wildfires = more earthquakes = more tsunamis = more death and destruction. That is the message you want to send to the rest of the world, your kids and their future. That is what will happen , but I forgot you want to get out of traffic quicker. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!! Stop the toll road!!! Stop buying hummers and sitting in traffic!!! Stop contributing to the destruction of our planet. Get involved!!! Stop Global Warming!!! Beacuse your kids will not be able to fix the problems you made for them. Sincerely, Matthew Lang - A Proud American
Why is it that the OC solution to horrendous traffic is simply to “add more roads?” Don’t you people get it?? The toll road will become just as congested as the I-5 once they use the toll road as the vehicle to allow development of Rancho Mission Viejo!! Traffic on the I-5 will continue to crawl unless people stop using their cars so much. Pull your head out of your ass, tollroad supporters. Learn from L.A.’s mistake — more freeways does not equal less traffic.
The Register “push-poll” has phony choices. The REAL reason to oppose 241 is the violation of public lands, including Trestles. By hijacking the language to frame the argument as “traffic vs. Trestles”, the Register is helping delude the public for the benefit of Toll Road Bandits.
Choices should be:
1. Favor Toll Road
2. Oppose Toll Road
3. Don’t care
Many oppose the 241 because it’s a Toll Road; others oppose it because it violates park land, a principle the Register wants to obscure with its phony un-free choices.
TO THE PEOPLE THAT WANT THE TOLL ROAD- Have you ever spent a full day down on that beach, surfing, fishing, watching the wildlife, relaxing?? The majority of you didnt have a clue about this area before because you are so blinded by your concrete jungle!! Screw Orange County and its traffic problems! This land is a gift and to take it away would be a major loss!! So bring your whinny-asses to the meeting so we can hear all the crying about a problem you created!!!
Right, that’s all we need in OC, more toll road. Gimme a break. The Trestles area is the last bastion of solitude in OC. Let’s please leave it alone. The 73 is such a stupid ugly site. Enough already. If traffic is that bad, MOVE!
I SUPPORT THE PROJECT TO REDUCE TRAVEL TIME & SAVE GAS IN THE FUTURE, DUE TO THE POPULATION GROWS IN CALIFORNIA.
Please, more cement…
Cement, I love you!
I don’t want to see nature outside my door.
Force me to drive far away to see beauty.
Make me fly to far away lands to remember what home was like.
Can we pave the ocean too?
Plants, animals and dirt, all of God’s creation, are all icky.
I want stability, I want cement.
Make my life faster, I don’t want to slow down.
Faster, firmer, I want to drive FASTER!!!
I want to work harder and spend more.
More time at work so I can have more money.
Gimme.
Please cover me in cement , cover my whole body in asphalt.
I love the way it feels, smells and looks.
I want it everywhere.
Funnel all liquids and waste into a gudder.
A cement gudder.
Don’t filter it, just put chemiclas in it.
Animals want to live in it and want to eat it.
Mix it with trash becasue I want to swim in it.
More cars, more noise and more loud trucks.
Scare away the birds, animals and every living thing.
Like me.
I’m scared of nature.
All I want to see is grey, grey cement.
Only grey and black.
Cover me, kill me, kill everything.
I can’t sit still.
I don’t want to listen.
I just want to drive faster!!!!
Bob McGowan you must be a over weight developer in a Escalade who sits on his couch and eats burgers all weekend ! Go take a walk moron !
so im just against it because im down with saving the enviroment..like so cal already has crazy amounts of people and the building of homes is already destroying the habitat….and if global warming does turn out to all be true than building more roads for people to drive on wont help…i dont really care if trestles gets fucked up…theres too many people there anyways so its not even fun to surf but i think we should really think about the impact on the enviroment
Hey George Lambert, why the personal attack on someone you don’t know?
Are your hateful remarks representative of the surfrider mentality? I hope not!
Some of the posts on here are cracking me up. There are actually people saying that they could care less about the parks and beaches that are the foundation of why people are drawn to California. People care more about their drive time than their surroundings.
To those people, I say you’re living in the wrong part of the country. There are plenty of states in the continental United States that has no traffic congestion, and a lower cost of living. You don’t appreciate where you live anyway, so why stay in Southern California and have to deal with the traffic and dumb surfers. I think Alabama would love to have you.
There is only one reason the Surfrider Foundation does not want the 241 extension to be built and that is beacuse of the 909″ers. That is they do not want the people from Riverside to have shorter direct access to Trestles and it is not about anything else.
Who cares about the Pacific Pocket mouse except the Coyotes trying to eat them and guess what the I-5 is closer to Trestles than the 241 will be.
I surf trestles every weekend and if I don’t get there before 9:00 the traffic is terrible. I have been surfint Trestles since the late 1950’s and if there were 5 guys in the water we thought it was crowded.
I understand about not wanting more people in the water but it is inevitiable so lets reduce traffic congestion, reduce smog and clean up the runoff off the I-5.
I support the 241 extension.
If anyone has ever hiked on nature trails along the base of the existing toll roads you’ll find that they are teeming with wildlife. Nature is not so reticent and frail as some people imagine. The toll roads are mostly so elevated that below them you don’t even know there are cars up there a hundred feet in the air.
Anyone who hasn’t heard the term “The Tressles” until this debate isn’t going to be impacted negatively by the extension of the toll road.
Phil, you said it perfectly. There are so many other beautiful warm weather states out there to accomodate all the people on this post who couldn’t care less about the ocean and natural habitat. Ask your boss if you could work remotely from Nevada, you’ll love it there. There are good jobs there as well and sweet real estate prices. Go, live your dream. consume to your hearts content. You’ll be happy. Living in OC is not cool. You will not get famous here.
Pro- toll road campaigners, my advice to you is to take a long walk along Trestles at sunset. The beach is there for everyone to enjoy. Warning: it may take a little effort. The 241 will destroy public land for private profit. This area is undeniably the most beautiful part of Southern California and you want to ruin it all so that you can get from one place to another quicker. Slow down, take a walk, learn to surf. It is our RESPONSIBILITY to protect CALIFORNIA. If you are so concerned about traffic, move closer to where you work, take the bus, carpool, or find a new job. This mistake is irreversible. The builders are laughing all the way to the bank.
“I SUPPORT THE PROJECT TO REDUCE TRAVEL TIME & SAVE GAS IN THE FUTURE, DUE TO THE POPULATION GROWS IN CALIFORNIA.”
Yeah…too bad the proposed toll road won’t help achieve any of those things.
I was watching California Gold and they were showing that State park as part of a program on the Cal park system, and that subject came up….it cuts through half of the park 10 lanes of traffic…they showed exactly where this goes. I am sorry but this sucks, widen the 5 fwy put a second level on the 5, whatever it takes. We already have enough toll roads they are up to $10 one way on the 91 now, seriously get a grip people we need more space and less expansion of asphalt into coastal areas with related noise and smog. Just concentrate on the 5 and do what you have to do, it is an obvious greed situation and nothing more, or the flip side the people who want to cut through a beautiful are to save time….just use the 5 and quit destroying what we have left.
Poster Doug Korthof said it perfectly. This poll is a joke anyway; talk about a rigged question. One of the choices is “It’s a good idea to relieve traffic”….except that it won’t do anything to relieve the traffic. So what kind of choice is that? Ha, ha.
Toll roads create more disparity between the rich and the poor and all the resentment and repurcussions that comes with that. I don’t think that a majority of people can afford $10-$25 / roundtrip day ($220-$550/mo!)….only the well off can afford that. If a road is truely needed, it would be demanded and paid for by all of us through gas and state taxes by OCTA…. that would benefit all of us, not just the rich/well off.
And why is an Orange County road public hearing being moved to DelMar in San Diego county? Because they want to make it immpossible for us in OC come and oppose it! It’s an incredulous and outrageous place of venue that blocks public participation and opposition!
No freeway for the priviledged few!
Let the extension of South Orange County 241 Toll Road continue. This will provide a much needed escape route from the coast should some coastal disaster occur. It will also take congestion off the 5 freeway providing a better quality of life for those who live in San Clemente, Dana Point, San Juan Capistrano, Mission Viejo, Tustin and Irvine. This will extension will bypass the Trestles leaving those in the ocean to fight for waves. Those floating in the ocean can look away from the land if they get emotional about seeing a road that they will also drive.
Wow, the TCAs propaganda machine is on overdrive apparently! Haha. I can’t believe the TCA has the nerve to continue to lie to the public about their project. They claim it will help traffic on the 5 fwy: Lie. They claim it will not harm the environment: Lie. They claim it will be financially successful: Lie (just look at their other financial disaster, the 73). Do they really expect the citizens of OC to fall for this nonsense? Please…
population control !!!
the more heads we need to feed the more heads we need to get on the freeway
simple enough ?
more gas stations more food more farming more this and more that… yeah save trestles but save ourselves from ourselves !!!
we are the worse pest that ever invaded planet earth !!! think people !!!
we reproduce like rats !!!
This project is not going to alleviate traffic in anything other than the short term. Take it from someone who grew up in coastal Southern California: more roads = more development = worse congestion. I’ve watched it happen for twenty years.
Now, throw in threats to endangered species, compromised parkland for recreation and camping, and pollution issues…is it really worth it? This is not the ONLY solution. Let’s find a better one.
It’s really just about the un-natural runoff that will ruin wetlands and sandbars. WHY go through a state park that should be reserved for our kids to enjoy. I believe we need to refocus on alternative routes. I dont believe that roads that we pay for each time we use them are the answer. Very few people use existing toll roads
Putting a toll road through a state park is probably the dumbest idea I’ve heard in a long, long time. I’m definately opposed to this!
Bob Mc Gowan you are right and I do apologize it was poor judgement on my part and by no means is this the mentality of the Surfrider Foundation or surfers ! I just get upset that such a beautiful place that I was taken to by my parents as a child and surfed and camped and BBQ and now I take my children there and do the same has a chance of being spoiled . I would love to take you there and have you spend the day at the beach . We will teach you to surf and we will also bring the tri -tip ! Who knows it could change your life
THIS IS A NO BRAINER! JERRY BROWN STARTED SKREWING THE PEOPLE OF CALIFORNIA MANY YEARS AGO AND WE HAVE BEEN SUFFERING ALL THESE YEARS. WE ARE 20 YEARS BEHIND IN MEETING THE TRANSPORTATION NEEDS OF THE PEOPLE OF CALIFORNIA. ASK YOURSELF,”HOW LONG DO I WANT TO WAIT IN STOP AND GO TRAFFIC WITH HEALTH THREATNING BAD AIR?” OR, BETTER AIR AND MORE EFFICIENT TRANSPORTATION. AS I SAID “NO BRAINER”
Why would I want a road that I can’t afford to drive on? Gee, what a great help!
They shouldn’t build this thing anywhere, especially in a park.
The toll road will not help the traffic problem! It is being built so that the last part of Orange County can be ruined by developers. One of the most popular camping sites in California will be destroyed by the toll road. California already has the least amount of camp sites in the US! Follow the money trail. Surfrider and the Sierra club will make no money if this boondoggle fails but if it is built many developers will make millions and a pristine area will be developed with more homes. Do we need more homes and malls?!?
If there was ever a need for the 241 Toll Road to be “finished”, it is now. If we were to listen to all the “save this of that” crowd, we would still be traveling in covered wagons. This delay is causing a waste of tax money, and more traffic conjestion on the 5 Freeway.
Ron Walston
Lake Forest, CA.
Many of the proponents are of this mind set - I hate traffic so build a road.
Ignorance.
I hate traffic more than anyone. This road is not the solution.
Everyone who moves to San Clemente knows about the traffic. Either move closer to your office or DEAL WITH IT. Don’t destroy the beach to pollute our county with more smog.
Wow, the poll is hacked. I noticed and recorded the number of pro-road votes at 5:03, they were at 4344. I am writing this and it is 5:23 on my clock, and the pro votes are up to 6621… Some jerk wants a toll road really bad.
this is a road that should have been years ago. the liberal coastal losers try to stop progress all the time.
The lies are coming from the TCA. It will not decrease congestion. Do you really think the previous toll roads decreased congestion? The main reason “they” want to build the toll road is so that developers can build houses out in the boonies and not have to pay for an expensive road. I surf San Onofre and I believe that the surf will be greatly affected by the degredation of the San Mateo Creek which helps to distribute sand up and down the coast. Kill the Toll Road, PLEASE!
Some people are sooo stupid. I swear. Did anyone hear the governor’s little announcement about the budget cuts?? Yeah, Trestles is included so without the Toll Roads steeping in and putting a road in there, there will be no more beach. Plus expanding the I-5 means tearing down hundreds of homes.
Noticed also that the con vote was 1660 late last night and now it’s 4567 at 6 PM. WOW! It has tripled in 18 hours from a minority surfer fun group.
First off someone has hacked into the “favor” toll road votes.
They changed about 2000 in 20 minutes which is not possible.
Secondly, the toll road is a terrible idea. To go on it is way overpriced, and it will go through a state park! Since when is it ok to build a toll road through a state park?
People are greedy, they want to develop the area for their own personal benefit. Since it is a state park, it is easier to get a hold of the land, for the land is owned by the state and is very inexpensive. There are endangered species in this land. But does anyone care about the animals or the land itself? No they care about if the toll road will affect Trestles, one of the most famous surf breaks ever. The toll road people keep coming up with BS about how it won’t affect Trestles; it WILL affect trestles.
And for all the people that want the toll road to ease traffic, you are selfish idiots. For the traffic is not that bad to begin with, and the toll road will be so overpriced that not many people will waste that much money to go on it, which makes sense. So this toll road will not ease traffic in the sense you want it to.
Stop the toll road! It makes no sense except to the greedy selfish developers. Even Ronald Reagan had some sense, for it was this REPUBLICAN President who set the land aside. People please! The Toll road will not help anyone, it will only develop and ruin the little free land left in SoCal. Do we really want future generations will wonder why past generations were so short sided and selfish? I am a 16 year old, and coming from the future, I personally don’t.
Why are only “PRO toll road” comments being posted on this blog??? I know several people that have written and tried to comment AGAINST the toll road yet I don’t see their posts… Why not?
Are you censoring those of us who are against the Toll Road?
Just in case I get posted here…
I’m AGAINST the TOLL ROAD!
Wake up people, a toll road is NOT a solution, it’s a Band Aid on cancer. Once the road is built, there will be more communities built off it and thus more people = more traffic. Do you people actually think a road will bring LESS people to these already congested areas? No! Roads bring more people and more cars and more traffic!
Right now, Trestles is a relatively clean and beautifully natural beach. A toll road right up its creek would just be a short term solution that will further pollute its river (name ONE river mouth in So Cal that is not polluted), contaminate a great beach and ruin/close a State Park. A STATE PARK people! Do you not care about our California State Parks? Why does Arnold get to trump Ronald?
Nothing is sacred when the price is right I guess…
Don’t be surprised when the next California State Park gets shut down so you can save 15 minutes on your next Toll Road experience… Lame.
Where will the children play? I agree with this so Im reposting what was said here! people wake up! This is what will happen. Leave it natural as God gave it to us! no more Toll roads get money somewere else! leave the beaches and parks alone!
I’m for the Toll Road we need it yesterday. Everything about it makes sense. Sitting in grid lock is too wasteful for everyone.
um Bob McGowan…
I ponder your comment.
The people that are against the toll road are not just a “minority surfer fun group,” they are people who actually care about the planet’s future”. Not making some money off an unfair development.
Secondly, it makes sense for the people who are against the toll road’s vote to triple in a DAY.. duh. Some people actually care, I am sorry if you are one of the selfish people who gets paid or will make money off the toll road. It is in these instances where I wished I believed in hell, if you get what I am saying. Well anyway I think an increase in 2000 in less than 20 minutes is a more serious hack then the questioning triple in a day (people can vote any time they want, and this increase makes sense). I just hope that someday you will see the bigger picture, for people like you sadden me.
i have been reading this blog for two days now and the majority of people seem opposed to it for what I consider good reasons . I dont surf but I have brought my boys down to Trestles to surf on numerous occasions and loved the walk down to the beach .What a beautiful place ,just the smell of the plants on the way down was a nice relief to me after a hard week in an office ! This Bob fellow must have a stake in this somehow since he did call them the surfer minority group. I can tell you what I saw at Trestles were people from eight years old to seventy with their surfboards enjoying themselves !
I grew up in so cal and lived there until I was 27…I am now in Michigan where the roads are probably the worst I have ever seen. So, I say screw the toll road and send the money our way so we don’t have to drive through 5 bazillion potholes on the way to work during the biggest snow storm of the season.
Seriously, though, I think any time there is development along a coastline there should be extensive study done on how it will impact that coastline in years to come. Have we not learned anything form Hurricane Katrina or the Tsunami that hit years before that? What about the landslides that are constantly occurring in California up and down the coast due to over development - which are compounded due to over development on ridgelines that lead to stronger/more difficult to fight forest fires?
Sure, Global Warming has some hype that maybe is or isn’t true…but I worked with an evironmental sociologist whose work proves that the affect of Global Warming and overpopulation of coastlines will be detrimental to coastal cities (and their neighboring cities) throughout the world unless we get smarter about our development.
Why not find a way to work with the environment and still meet the needs of the population? Why not carpool more often? I wonder how many of the proponents to the toll road have actually made an effort to carpool? Not only will that cut down on traffic, but it will cut down on pollution - and hey, you might save a few bucks too.
One more note, entirely unrelated, but to that person that said it would help raise the property values to build another toll road - don’t you think the property values have gotten just a little bit out of control?? The housing boom is probably what attracted too many people out West anyway - now look where it’s gotten you…a real-estate/mortgage rate nightmare, over-population and too much traffic.
Get back to the basics people.
Anyone who drives the I-5 knows it’s NASCAR. I’m so worried every night when my husband is late coming home from work that he’s been in an accident. It’s becoming rare when I don’t see an accident on that freeway. It’s very scary to share the road with so many trucks and sooo many cars. We need relief. God help us if there is an emergency.
There is no way that the toll road will help with traffic. First of all, the only people taking that toll road will be people who live in santa margarita, where the toll road will connect will not relieve traffic, thats where traffic gets bad anyway. Plus, what regular person will really be able to afford this toll when its projected to be $10 each way. Good one. The only thing that this toll road is going to do is make south orange county more conjested and and eye soar. What we have around us is beautiful, why would we want to put concrete around it. People, you chose to live back in the boonies, there was so faster way to get there and back when you chose to live there, don’t make other people suffer because you are just selfish.
“Wow, the poll is hacked. I noticed and recorded the number of pro-road votes at 5:03, they were at 4344. I am writing this and it is 5:23 on my clock, and the pro votes are up to 6621… Some jerk wants a toll road really bad.”
Of course it’s hacked.
The OC Reg had a poll (that, unlike this one, WASN’T based on a bogus question) a week or so ago when they ran the ‘governor climbs into bed with TCA’ bit. The poll basically asked something to the effect of: “toll road thru San Ono - oppose or support?” “Oppose” beat “support” in a landslide - 72% were opposed when I last check it (4 or 5 days after the story ran). This outcome mirrors the results of an independent study done a few years ago that polled Californians state-wide, not just in OC. In that poll, “oppose” won by 70%.
Now we have this poll where one of the options is “relieve traffic (hahaha!)”, something the toll road will not even come close to doing. Add that to what you’ve pointed out: That the ‘hurray for the toll road’ answer gets about 1000 votes every 7 minutes, and you have a sad parody of a public opinion poll. But I wouldn’t be suprised if we saw the outcome of this “poll” in the TCA’s next lie-filled brochure! Heh, heh, heh…
The vote is tottaly favored in a typical OC Restister conservative way, What you people don’t realize is that this will destroy animal habitats and will ruin the ONLY UNTOUCHED STRETCH OF COASTLINE IN SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA, you don’t realize that for you to save 10 minutes out of your time will kill 1,000’s of animals. Don’t just think it’s surfers trying to keep their wave empty, it’s environmentalists too…
Agreed, clearly the poll has been hacked by the TCA. They are running bots that are adding votes every hour, even in the middle of the night. I certainly hope the author doesn’t give this any credence. What a joke.
The facts behind the toll road are clear if you’ve done your homework. Because of the design and cost of the toll road, their will not be enough people using it regularly to relieve the traffic congestion in south county. Plus, California law clearly states that it is ILLEGAL to build adjacent to coastal wetland areas. While San Onofre and Trestle may not be marsh land, the San Mateo creek and surrounding wilderness area provide a neccessary refuge for wildlife. This is especially true for the migratory birds who have very little remaining land to stop at on their migration path. Also, multiple endangered species live on that land. Ronald Reagan made it a national park for a reason! Please attend the coastal commision meeting at Del Mar Fairgrounds on Feb. 6th at 9 am to learn the facts before making your choice! Frenchie, Bitchesonboards
What’s really needed is a “BART” type system. We are spoiled and want it all here in California. We have too many freeways/added freeway lanes. No matter how many more lanes or freeways/tollroads built, it’ll never be enough.
Why don’t we appreciate and protect what little beauty we have left - send the toll road and it’s backers packing and take a breath of fresh air where we can find some. We’ve voted on this before and no matter how many of the developer-supported comments you print, the public has a good picture of what’s happening and won’t be fooled by slick ads. Surfriders has done a great job keeping the water and beaches clean and protected for the public’s use. I, for one, appreciate their dedication throughout the US. Keep up the good work!
Yes, re. the ftc site, glad you brought it up. If anyone cares to view it (and its very poorly designed…) you have hundreds of names duplicated not once or twice, but three or more times throughout the list of “supporters”….no doubt your “hackers” trumped up the blog.
Your comments are very telling: you and your peeps are feeling the heat, and it ain’t just from Surfrider. Its from everyday people who don’t buy into propaganda, who are offended by the many mailers, emails, and pointless screeching radio and television ads, and it hasn’t done the job…..
Did you read about the Davis Amendment today being passed yesterday? Big win for the residents who would be affected by this ill-fated toll road. In fact, its a big win for everybody. It says that the TCA has to stop playing games and play by the rules. Mandates that the toll road project must comply with state environmental laws. How’s the toll road going to bribe its way out of this one?
And Mr. McGowan — we’re hardly beach bums. Hardworking parents, homeowners and college graduates. Your disparaging remarks about surfers and Surfrider is well, laughable. Shows how much you and your supporters are backed up against a wall..and this losing proposition.
I think you should move to Arizona and live in the dirt in a trailer. If you don’t value this pristine area in which we live, then get out. You’ll never drive the toll road, now will you? Your retirement dollars best not be spent at $12-15 each way, per day on a silly toll road!
Are we selfish? On this point, you happen to be spot on! Absolutely selfish and proud of it. I have two daughters and they will likely have grandchildren and I selfishly want to preserve what President Ronald Reagan set aside in perpetuity. A state park for all to enjoy.
President Reagan would be shaking in his boots right now to know that we’re throwing a state park under the bus for a for-profit toll road that serves absolutely no purpose or solves any traffic problems.
Maybe you haven’t read through the blogs. That phony groupie movement using teen hackers comment is a joke. 90% of the comments are well written, factual, by adults and propose overwhelmingly compelling reasons why this toll road should never be built. And these are from hardworking tax paying, homeowners and busy housewives like myself. Maybe you’re the feeble one. We’re hardly a minority, and you shall see that on the 6th.
I agree with everyone stating that no matter how many freeways we build, it will never be enough. More freeways means more homes which means more freeways. Not to mention that your tax dollars are already going towards the maintenance of the toll roads in the form of CalTrans.
So whether you use the toll road or not, you’re paying for them to be maintained.
If you are opposed to this toll road, do the right thing and take the public roads. The TCA is hemorrhaging money because not enough people are traveling on their roads. Add this to the fact that no one is investing in the roads because they’re not profitable roads (they’re offering high interest high risk bonds that nobody in their right mind would buy because they’ll never see a return).
This means that they are still relying heavily on customers until California offers to foot the bill.
I drive from Mission Viejo to Corona/Riverside continuously and am yet to take the toll road once, and seriously it has not inconvenienced me in the slightest bit.
BOYCOTT THE TOLL ROAD!!
well BOB, I’m 20 years old and a second year student at UC Irvine. I’m not sure if that puts me in the adult or ‘teen hacker’ category, but since you seem to be so sure of your positions and so sure of your facts, I highly recommend that you meet me down at the CCC meeting on the 6th in Del Mar. Yes, I am missing a class to be there. I believe that the future of the best beach in Southern California is worth it. We can discuss the pros (there aren’t any) and the cons face to face. Get off your high horse and get a clue BOB, unless you are a home developer, you stand to gain nothing from the extension of the 241 toll road.
This is likely the same Robert (Bob) McGowan the politician….. the same one involved in the failed El Toro airport plans.
If so, it’s no suprise that he is not motivated by alleviating traffic.
Traffic is what this road is supposed to be all about, right?
WRONG!
I support the toll road. We were heavily involved years ago in the planning of the then heavily contested Eastern Corridor (241) as it paralleled Jamboree through Tustin and Irvine.
Roads are needed as populations grow. Public energies could be better spent by the public helping to find ways to mitigate visual and physical pollution such as berming and landscaping to hide roadways, decorative barriers, and fine-tuning the routes to accomplish needs and esthetics. The toll road engineers may not see what the public skills can offer in this way. Be a positive solution maker!
Bob McGowan, who are you to call someone else’s opinion “feeble.” I suggest that you spend less time in the office making money, and more time on the beach with us hippies. Maybe then you would be a much happier person.
Those here who support the 241 work for, or own heavy construction companies who want our tax millions to fatten their bank accounts.
Their companies bribe government officials and pay big bucks to campaign funds.
They only want money and don’t care about the future of OC
They are sending out emails to their employees to support the rape of our state beach.
LA to San Diego is becoming a gridlock. Please don’t miss this opportunity to make access reasonable.
I just don’t understand how it is going to ease traffic. Look at the 241 to the 91. It did nothing to help the congestion on the 91, it just helped the congestion through Orange County, but the bottleneck starts at the Riverside County line. Oh sure, it will ease traffic through Orange County, but it will still funnell down to four lanes across Camp Pendleton, there is no option. So what it really means is that people from north of us (San Clemente) will have the false impression that traffic will be better because of the fabulous toll road, they will race across the toll road and come to a screeching halt at Basilone Road, just like every other weekend day. Only it will be worse due to the fact that people will be under the incorrect impression that traffic won’t be as bad so some people that may have chosen the 15 to get to San Diego, will now come down the toll road instead. Doing what? INCREASING the traffic on the 5 South into San DIego. Oh, but THAT doesn’t matter to those of us who live behind the Orange Curtain, does it? We just don’t want all those nasty cars from Riverside on our pristine freeway. The Toll Roads lose money, as they lose money, they increase their rates. How much will it cost to drive the 241 end to end? 10 dollars? 15 dollars? So who will use it? The small minority of people who can actually afford a 10-15$ toll. Once again, Orange County wants something that will benefit a few people, the wealthy people. Talk to the people who live at the end of the road, San Clemente, Oceanside, Carlsbad, the people who will be impacted negatively. The people who have to live with it. I have a better idea, STOP BUILDING MORE HOUSES, so we won’t NEED more roads.
If you really need another road so bad, START TUNNELING. You won’t cut some slimy, back room deal with our joke politicians to take our State Parks.
I’m not a surfer and I am against the Toll Road expansion because I care about the place where we live. Most people who will be using the toll road probably will be commuting from San Diego County and they don’t even live in OC. Why are we thinking about destroying our home form some outsiders? Maybe because they’ll be able to build some overpriced track housing along side the toll road at a later date.
This reminds me of when people were trying to turn the El Toro Marine Base into an airport. They were going to conduct noise test by flying planes out of the airport on a certain day. That day came and tons of people called in about the noise complaints. The problem was the test was delayed and they were not actually condcuting any test on the day when all the calls came in.
… now they have a giant hot air ballon at El Toro on a rope that you can sit in and go up in the air. Developers are a bunch of careless fools who only want your money and will do anything to trick you into getting it.
Creating a new Y (where the toll road meets the 5) will just create a huge traffic jam back-up on the 5. I can’t believe people are too blind to see this. It’s going to be like the El Toro Y or the Orange Crush all over again. In San Clemente. In San Juan Capistrano. In Dana Point.. Making a Y out of two roads does NOTHING. You won’t be able to parallel the 5 and 15 until Camp Pendelton is gone. Until that time there is no point building 100,000 new housing units east of San Juan Capistrano with no useful roads. Table the whole thing and get back to reality folks.
“I don’t think that a majority of people can afford $10-$25 / roundtrip day ($220-$550/mo!)….only the well off can afford that.”
First of all, it doesn’t cost that much. I live in RSM and have found over the years that it is not only less expensive to use the tollroad ( than to use MORE gas to drive down surface streets to get to the freeway.) to get to Irvine and points North, it also takes MUCH less time. ( Less time on our roads equals less pollution – what part of that is difficult to comprehend? )
Now, for me to head South, toward San Diego, I have to again use MORE gas, ( and MUCH more time in my car, equaling much more pollution.) on surface streets, to get over to the 5. If I do that on the weekend, jumping on the Southbound 5 at Oso on a Saturday morning I am confronted with a sea of slow moving traffic all the way to the San Diego County line. ( And the reverse is true coming back on Sunday evening.)
Having the tollroad completed means less traffic on the 5 because ALL us people coming from inland ( Not just RSM, but places like Anaheim Hills, inland Lake Forest and Mission Viejo, Coto de Caza, and Ladera Ranch.) will be on the tollroad instead of the 5. Because it will save us time? Sure, but it will also pay for itself in gas not used, or gas used in going down to the freeway to join the traffic jam – sitting there at 5 or 10 MPH using more gas, polluting the air even more.
Let’s face it, anti-tollroad advocates – this is 2008. More people are still coming to Southern California than are leaving. Not building the tollroad will NOT stop more people from coming, and further clogging our road systems. You are NOT going to change California back to 1960, before the freeway went to San Diego. ( Does anyone remember the 101 as being the ONLY way to go South? Before the 5, and the 15? ) Get a grip NIMBYs. More people coming to this area equals more congestion, and that congestion can be considerably relieved by people who are EAGER to pay a hefty toll in order to save a like amount spent for gas, and a LOT of time saved NOT sitting on a freeway, polluting the cities ( and state beaches.) they’re passing through.
“And why is an Orange County road public hearing being moved to DelMar in San Diego county? Because they want to make it immpossible for us in OC come and oppose it! It’s an incredulous and outrageous place of venue that blocks public participation and opposition!”
Apparently you haven’t looked on a map, or read posts above that show that Trestles is actually in San Diego County. Does THAT help you understand the logic?
In case it hasn’t been made clear in this post, I am a STRONG advocate for the completion of the tollroad, and I fully intend to attend the meeting in Del Mar.
To the anti-tollroad advocates, who want to go back to the “good old days” with less concrete, I suggest you WALK to Del Mar along the railroad tracks that the Trestles were named for. Oh wait! They cut through a state beach, and Indian land, just like the tollroad would. Perhaps you can just walk along the beach. Oh wait! The Marines might not allow you to tread on Military land. Too bad the 101 is no longer open for you to drive on, but it was replaced by PROGRESS.
And to Dina - I don’t work for, or own a heavy construction company, hoping to fatten my bank account by building the tollraod. I’m an average citizen who uses the existing tollroads virtually every day, and who prefers paying less money for gas, than tolls, and who prefers spending less time on our existing surface streets and freeways, NOT contributing to the pollution we all have to breathe.
Most of all these responses are boilerplate responses propagated by the TCA. Widen the I-5 is the real solution. Why should we have to pay to drive on a road when all we have to do is widen the I-5. I like the Campground as it is. I am sick and tired of CARS and Roads in OC.
As a longtime surfer and nature lover i have to say. I know they dont build highways in the ocean!! This will have no effect whatsoever on trestles or any surfbreak. The surfrider foundation whips up a frenzy with thier lies and most people just believe what they say. They lied about Playa Vista and cost taxpayers millions of dollars. When you protest and delay these needed projects who do you think pays in the end????Don’t you think it’s time to put some people to work. Tell the truth Surfrider and stick to it. I would love to start supporting the surfrider foundation again. Quit telling lies and you have my support!!
Listen people, its not just the surf break we are trying to preserve here. This is the last untouched state beach in southern californina. It is home to the most pristine watershed in the state of california. It is home to 11 count 11 species of birds that are federaly protected as endagered species. this toll road will destory over 60%!! of the state park. Imagine bulldozing half the houses in your neighborhood to build another freeway. Not to mention that the beaches along the San Mateo/ San Onofre state beach contain some of the cleanest waters in southern california. This is because they dont have a 16 mile toll road running along the shore. Open Youre eyes!!
get out of town & leave us alone . go fix the potholes that that you ignore
Is nothing sacred?
What are you ignorant “so-cal” people (not all so-cal people, just the ignorant ones) going to do when there is no more open space and not an unplanned blade of grass anywhere?
Haven’t any of you gone to college and taken biology or ecology? Don’t you realize what your doing down there?
Doesn’t anyone care about anything besides money?
Don’t destroy any more of beautiful california!
Supporters of stopping the toll road - STAY STRONG!!!
The earth does not belong to you! You are only borrowing it from your children!
Driving to the meeting at Del Mar will show everyone why we need the 241 South built.
Please, everyone be normal and drive one person in one car.
Please allow at least two hours.
You guys, lets get real. the toll road, if it even DID ease traffic for a short while, it would just be like putting a tiny bandaid on an enormous gaping wound and hoping that it would fix it. Trestles aside, it is a waste of money. It is a waste of money because southern California’s population is rising at such a high rate that in just a short time, the toll rode will be ineffective in easing traffic. WE NEED PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION. the toll road is a WAST OF MONEY.
It’s interesting and fun to read all the pros and cons regarding building of the toll road. What we really need is public transportation instead of another road. However, to be realistic, we’ll never have that in oil loving so. cal.
How about giving us another vote. Although my son is a die hard surfer, that has nothing to do with my vote against the toll road. I don’t get to check the box that says, stop the greedy Rancho Viejo, the good ol boys and wealthy developers from jamming 14 THOUSAND new homes behind San Juan. That is why they are pushing this road. It is for more and more development. STOP gridlock the TCA signs say, what a laugh. It is their continual exploitation and being in bed with the wealthy and the developers and even elected officials now like the gubernator that will bring the gridlock if they continue down the path. The 73 has not paid for itself and they want to bring us more of the same. I personally choose to go it slower on the 5 rather than pay 4 bucks to go a few miles. I applaud Susan Davis for forcing these guys to follow state law. I wonder how much bribery and such went on to get their plans so fast and streamlined.
“some people that may have chosen the 15 to get to San Diego, will now come down the toll road instead. Doing what? INCREASING the traffic on the 5 South into San DIego. Oh, but THAT doesn’t matter to those of us who live behind the Orange Curtain, does it? We just don’t want all those nasty cars from Riverside on our pristine freeway. ”
What a ridiculous assumption! People who live North of the 91, like in Yorba Linda, will scoot over to the 15 for 2 reasons. First, it’s FREE! Second, the 15 does NOT have gridlock like the 5, South of the El Toro “Y”.
The reason the 91 is so gridlocked is because the toll portion was an afterthought and a bandaid, and isn’t nearly big enough. If it was big enough, the tolls could be lower, because more people would be using it, just has happened with the 241, near where I live.
We “inlanders” in South O.C. USE the tollroad because it saves us TWO valuable items: Gas ( most of us pay less in tolls than we would pay for gas, schlepping over to the freeway.) AND time. ( And less time driving equals less pollution in the air that we ALL, pro-tollroaders and anti-tollroaders, alike have to breathe.)
Personally, I would opt for cleaner air and less gas consumption, than worrying about (1) how 11 so-called environmentally sensitive types of wildlife are going to figure out how to go around something man-made, rather than bump into it, or (2) some ill-informed NIMBYs who THINK talking or complaining about it, is eventually going to stop growth and/or progress.
Again, there are more people coming to Southern California, and to South Orange County, than will be leaving, both next year, and next decade. Traffic congestion is NOT going to go away, just because you complain about it. The tollroad extension is needed - NOW! If you don’t think so, try going back to before there were freeways in California.
We would ALL love to have an acre of land to live on, and save ALL of God’s creatures, but MOST of us don’t particularly cherish hitching up the horses for the 2 hour drive ( and back! ) to the general store for our week’s provisions.
Or, if you’re a surfer, especially an older one, ( I’m over 60, and have been living in South O.C. since 1959.) you long for the old days, when the beach was far less crowded.
Guess what, dreamers? Neither scenario is going to return, so deal with life in the here and now, in South O.C. - STILL one of the World’s primary destinations, for people to live in, or visit.
Of course, if you don’t like progress, and don’t like more congestion, you COULD move to Wyoming.
I wrote in yesterday to voice my support against the toll road . I spent some time going through all of these blogs and the general opinion is people do not want this and it only stands to line developers and politicians pockets. It seems this Bob McGowan fellow was really out of line as a public official with some of his comments ? I will make sure I take feb 6th off of work to come and show my support against the toll road .Who knows Bob I will retire soon and learn to surf and enjoy my life maybe you should do the same !
Kevin,
“As a longtime surfer and nature lover i have to say I know they dont build highways in the ocean!!”
Hahaha, priceless! If you were truly the nature lover and surfer you claim to be (or even someone who simply had the facts on this issue) you would understand that yes, while there are obviously no “highways in the ocean”, highways built on top of creeks that DRAIN INTO the ocean dump all their filthy highway runoff into the creek and, therefore, into the ocean. It’s common sense. And the bulldozing the creek will, of course, screw up the sediment flow that makes the waves so great at Trestles. You’re expecting us to believe that, as a “longtime surfer and nature lover” you weren’t already aware of these simple truths?
Well, surely being a “longtime…nature lover” you also already know about the endangered species habitat that will be destroyed by this road, and the huge portion (at least 60%) of the state park that will have to be shut down should this road be built as proposed, right? And since you’re a “nature lover” you must also realize that building this un-needed toll road will simply produce, in addition to the dirty highway runoff I already mentioned, more traffic noise and vehicle emissions? I have no doubts that a nature lover like you would support realistic and practical traffic solutions such as fixing I-5, upgrading arterials, and adding more efficient mass transit systems (such as light rail) over a woefully obsolete and environmentally-destructive proposal like the toll road, right?
Longtime surfer and nature lover? Yeah, right…who do you think you’re kidding?
For those of you who say the toll road extension will relieve traffic congestion, I ask you where are your facts for this? Are you just regergitating what other people are saying. The thing is this, many of the toll roads are losing money. Why? Not as many people use it as expected. Thus one can expect the same to happen with the 241 extension. TCA is not a state agency! They want to make money, they are partnered with other businesses who want to make money, Developers. If the extension is built, more traffic will come due to more homes, and businesses being built in an area that previously had no development. When this scenario plays out fifteen years from now I will be throwing this in the faces of all who wanted the toll road.
We all thought that a state park is land that is protected from development in perpetuity. Now we find that a group of evil developers is trying to steal it and build a road that will do nothing to alleviate traffic congestion in OC. What kind of a precedent would this set for other state parks? We need to stop this toll road because maybe all of California’s wonderful state parks would be in danger if we let this one go through. Save California’s state parks!
O.C. Register didn’t even mention the loss of campgrounds (among other things). They made it sound like it’s only about surfers.
Obviously FOR the toll road?
The statement that driving on the Toll Roads saves you gas money is very wrong. Your big SUV’s and high performance engines are costing you gas money. The toll road is just a way for you to shave a few minutes off of your ride to wherever.
The whole gas thing is BS anyway and a whole different subject.
Lets just put it this way … In the late 80’s early 90’s a Honda CRX got 50 miles a gallon and now car manufatures are raving about 35 miles a gallon. Such BS!
The bottom line is the Toll Road will only make it easier for developers to build. It’s an access route to the untapped land in South OC.
Sighburrdood,
You say people keep moving to Orange County insinuating that the counties population is growing. This is a MIS-STATEMENT, NOT TRUE. The last two years more people have moved from the county than moved in. In fact the State lost more people than it gained last year. This was peorted in a couple of articles on this website. So one can not asume that there is always a mass of people moving here.
I understand that surfers fear damage to the beach but think this is a non-issue. The toll road will not add to the net traffic– those cars will still be there, they will simply have to use the I-5 if the toll road is not built. Moreover, I believe the toll road people when they say they will do pollution mitigation work. This can only help the watershed. Anybody who talks about a “pristine” creek obviously has never been there.
Many people who oppose the 241 don’t care about Trestles. Their real agenda is to block development East of San Clemente. I bet most of them have not lived in San Clemente long enough to know why our sewage treatment plant is near the coast in what should be prime property. It was originally supposed to be built away from town to the East. It was blocked by short sighted activists who thought that by doing so, they could prevent development up the Pico corridor! Well guess what? We got Telega anyway plus a sewage plant in the middle of town! Folks, when TRW leaves, that area will be developed.
If the 241 is not built, they still have right-of-way for a divided parkway. The growth will come. The 241 extension is the best way to manage traffic. Otherwise, we will have the worst of both worlds. It’s happened to us before, let’s not have it happen again.
When has the TCA ever had a successful project. The taxpayers have bailed them out more than once. This toll road will be just one more taxpayer gift to the developers. Let the TCA build a new state park in the same area with equal or better amenities, not just hand the state $100 million that will be diverted to programs other than parks. All the pro toll road comments are probably from workers at the consulting firms who have a stake in seeing this road built. No more TCA blunders.
Dear SighburrDOOD,
First off, you’re an idiot. Instead of asking us why we would like to stop growth (if not stop, at least plan for it instead of reacting to it), ask yourself why you would like growth?? How will it help you?
You are right about more people coming to Southern California and South Orange county, however there are more ways to reduce traffic and congestion than building a new toll road. Ever heard of mass transit? Carpooling? The opportunity cost of building a toll road is extremely high, keep that in mind.
As to your point about not worrying about the 11 endangered species “bumping into the freeway,” ask yourself again how you would like it if someone decided to install a welding bench in your kitchen, or perhaps a woodshop in your living room…I’m sure you would be intelligent enough not to physically run into it, but would it annoy you? The noise and smell of welding and sawing all day long in your house? So how would an animal like a 6 lane freeway going through THEIR house/habitat?
Why don’t YOU move to Wyoming, since you clearly have no regard for the ocean, environmental issues, or intelligence itself…I think you’ll fit right in. There won’t be any traffic so you can commute to your job quickly, plenty of land to develop, and nice, lax environmental regulations so you can pollute and develop all you want.
I love the water and surfing, kayking, sport fishing and even surf fishing as much or more than most. I’m from Aiea, Hawaii and grew up spending most of my childhood with my Dad and brother at Turtle Bay on the North Shore of Oahu.
Guess what goes around that island now??? A Freeway!!!
We drove a 1955 Chevy Station Wagon then and it took about an hour and a half to get where you can go in twenty minutes now. And, it hasn’t hurt the beach or scenery in the least.
The only thing Trestles has to be afraid of, is more visitors and surfers. The Toll Road isn’t going to impare any of the breaks. You might get more spectators watching you Hot Dogs trying to show off, but all in all I can’t see how anyone thinks improving the traffic situation in our OC is going to impare your private time in the water at San Clemente. So, keep surfing and trying to improve that pose and . . . . . OH! Sorry Dude . . . . . that’s usually what happens to me. Ha!
Once a state park is paved over, say goodbye to the rest of them…..
This toll road will not help ease traffic congestion, it will actually just lead to more development in the hills of San Clemente, which will in turn lead to more traffic.
There are 11 endangered species of San Mateo Creek at risk of extinction and all you people that don’t care about the “little critters” of our world are ignorant in thinking that the extinction of these animals won’t hurt us down the road.
I would love to see the toll road and the TCA get shut down along with all the other “crazies”.
trestles is a mystical place for those who don’t know, one of the most unique stretches of coastline in ca. It would be a real shame for the toll road to ruin this one of a kind place. Man has ruined just about every great place in the world, the time is now to save this place! Also san mateo creek is one of the last unpolluted creeks in socal with a vast ecosystem with several endangered species, so putting a UNNEEDED road through here will really screw this place up. Please vote to save this place, if trestles is destroyed so is my life!
Think you guys might have the wrong Bob Mcgowan.
He lives in M.V. near the 241 and is pres. of the Calif. Surf Lifesaving Association in H.B.
Surfers unite against the developer’s toll road. See u on Feb. 6th
Bring all your surfing friends. I’ll be going by bus.
I would like to know why our county, state, and nation continue to sacrifice our land, water ways, and other resources so a small percentage of people can make large profits on housing. Some of the people that wrote their comments don’t understand that after the toll road is in, that’s when you’ll see major tracks of homes and other developments in south county emerging in the local hillsides. With this comes new storm drain systems that WILL dump massive amounts of untreated pollution into this world class break. Hey, just look up the coast at Doheny. I’m sure staements like what harm could their be in putting in a harbor. Have you looked at the water quality their lately. It’s time to take a stand, I sure hope our governator has taken up sides with Surfrider on this one. What better way to demonstrate ones love for the enviroment than to join us on this fight. Don’t forget, if you’re sitting out on your board complaining about why this is happening and don’t join in the figth, please keep your comments to yourself. It’s worth fighting for, JUST DO IT!!!
No Bad Days
Greg
Plain and simple: This is OUR State Park, It belongs to us for our peacefull enjoyment! We don’t need this stinking noisy road going anywhere near it. Stick it somewhere else!!!
Hey Mark Cole,
You certainly captured my attention AND my respect, by starting off your tirade against my post in this fashion: “First off, you’re an idiot.”
Thank you for your sterling diagnosis of my mental capabilities.
Then, you went on to recommend that the solution to our area’s traffic woes will ultimately be - TADA! - mass transit! LOL.
HMM. How often do YOU take a bus to Trestles? Or do you take the AMTRAK to the San Clemente pier and then WALK to Trestles? Perhaps whenever you go to San Diego, you also take the AMTRAK?
And how many people driving next to you on our freeways are carpooling? Are YOU?
As for me moving to Wyoming, I suspect that I have lived in South O.C. since before you were born, ( 1969.) so I get seniority rights to make that request. Sorry.
Tim Williamson says: “I spent some time going through all of these blogs and the general opinion is people do not want this and it only stands to line developers and politicians pockets.”
Instead of reading the overzealous, misinformed whinings of a hundred or so tree-hugging stay at home moms, or surfer-dudes, none of whom have the slightest scientific knowledge to support their preposterous claims or lies, you might go to the actual website for the pro-tollroad forces ( http://www.relievetraffic.org ) to read their factual rebuttals to the above claims, serious misstatements, or outright lies.
But, of course, that might be considered tantamount to going over to the “dark side”, LOL. Read the truth, not the lies of the seriously misinformed.
The truth IS that this tollroad was planned 20 years ago, and has gone through an incredible scrutiny of regulatory systems, over the years. None of the builders or politicians who YOU state are lining their pockets were even around back then.
The truth IS that South Orange County is almost totally built out by the “evil” developers - only 14,000 houses will be built in Rancho Viejo - most of that out the Ortega Hwy. The VAST majority of the land exposed to the tollroad’s path is ALREADY built, OR unbuildable Federal land, either military or national forest.
So, read the truth, instead of believing or contributing to the lies.
We need the tollroad.
The Costal Commision has some interesting commercials on TV which illicit the horror of slow moving traffic, and then tell us it will only get worse unless the 241 is extended. Is this claim true? Well, i’ve been on the southbound 241/133 many times at rush hour, and every time i’ve done so i’ve seen less than 10 cars per mile as it approachs the El Toro “Y”. Is diverting those ten cars from the commercial (only to have them meet up again in a few miles) really worth polluting and spoiling the last good beach area in southern California? I’d guess that the only people who think so are those who are disconnected from the beauty of nature, and of life itself. Far too many of us have exchanged such splended realities for flabby and artifical fabrications. What a waist.
Think the 73 and Aliso Viejo. Think 241 Rancho Santa Margarita, Ladera, Foothill Ranch. A road and then development.
The 241 extension is not about alleviating traffic. It’s only about opening the back country to 50,000 more people behind San Clemente and San Juan Capistrano.
The fact that the road is planned to end in the Coastal Zone and destroy a State Park is the only reason that the bulldozers haven’t started.
Why would any current resident traveling the 5 between San Diego and LA go via Riverside with tolls.
People need to ask questions.
The Toll Road Agency has some interesting commercials on TV which illicit the horror of slow moving traffic, and then tell us it will only get worse unless the 241 is extended. Is this claim true? Well, i’ve been on the southbound 241/133 many times at rush hour, and every time i’ve done so i’ve seen less than 10 cars per mile as it approachs the El Toro “Y”. Is diverting those ten cars from the commercial (only to have them meet up again in a few miles) really worth polluting and spoiling the last good beach area in southern California? I’d guess that the only people who think so are those who are disconnected from the beauty of nature, and of life itself. Far too many of us have exchanged such splended realities for flabby and artifical fabrications. What a waist.
Dear SighberDOOD,
If it makes you feel any better, I think you are an idiot too.
Warm Regards,
Mike
It’s not the toll road - it’s what will follow it. Has California ever built a road that is not soon awash in fast food joints, gas stations and the ever popular “rabbit hutches” that will be built along the route? Don’t believe that this is going to be some pristine drive to the coast. For once, just leave some piece of an empty hillside alone! Think of it as the “Donald Brening” of the south coast - never content to leave an empty space.
I’d rather sit in traffic and gaze over a beautiful hillside thank you.
Enough!
SC Fool says to me:
“If it makes you feel any better, I think you are an idiot too.”
HMM, with a screen name like yours, isn’t that a little like the pot calling the kettle black?
Thanks for reading my post.
Dear Sighburdood,
Did you say only 14,000 homes ? 2 cars per family , you do the math !It seems like people are bringing up good points against the toll road such as destroying endangered species , pollution runoff into the ocean(where will the poo go when these 14,000 homes are built) ruining a world class surf spot ,destroying a beautiful recreational place and on and on . You are a waste of skin !
Sighburrdood,
Ever look at the OCTA projected traffic diagrams?
If so, please give us your FACTUAL interpretation and how the extension will provide a substantial improvement.
If not, or you chose not to address this, please stop posting.
Thanks!
JJ said to me:
“Ever look at the OCTA projected traffic diagrams?
If so, please give us your FACTUAL interpretation and how the extension will provide a substantial improvement.
If not, or you chose not to address this, please stop posting.”
First of all, I have as much - IF NOT MORE - a right to post here as you. I have stated in more than one of my posts that I live in the RSM area, AND that I use the tollroads almost daily - to save time, and to save gas. Where do YOU live?
I have painstakingly read all the Cons, most of which are outright lies, designed to mislead people who either don’t have time to study the issues, OR, are too lazy, OR are just too lemming-like, wanting to follow whatever Charlatan who might lead them over a cliff.
I then painstakingly pored over the Pros, most of which have been produced in an equally painstaking manner, by QUALIFIED people of science, and/or engineering backgrounds. By going onto the Pro website: http://www.relievetraffic.org I was able to read the lies promoted by a few groups, and VERY successfully refuted with the truth.
I then made MY decision to be supportive of the tollroad - not because of something I read on a blog, written by someone with absolutely NO qualifications in the matter - but rather, based on truth AND a wealth of experience of driving in South Orange County since 1969 - almost 40 years.
So, again, JJ - just where do YOU live, and why are YOU promoting the ridiculous Beltway Loop idea?
Is there a unbiased place to get information on this subject? It seems as though the only info I have is either PRO Toll Road or ANTI Toll Road and both sides seem to be making some distortions.
Scott said to me:
“You say people keep moving to Orange County insinuating that the counties population is growing. This is a MIS-STATEMENT, NOT TRUE. The last two years more people have moved from the county than moved in. In fact the State lost more people than it gained last year.”
According to state sources, California’s population grew by 311,000 last year, ( after a total outflow of 89,000.) while O.C.’s population grew by 23,000 last year. Whoever you got your figures from is incorrect.
Just because you state something in ALL CAPS does not make it true. YOU are the one who is MIS-STATING information.
Most of the anti-tollroad advocates are spreading misinformation that they’ve gleaned ( and accepted as truth, without checking the facts.) from a few anti-tollroad websites.
ALL of this misinformation has been very truthfully and very logically refuted by the pro-tollroad website: http://www.relievetraffic.org The problem is, most anti-tollroad advocates can’t handle the truth. They’d rather swallow the emotional whinings ( and outright lies and/or deceptions.) of the anti-tollroad leaders, than seek out the truth.
Hopefully, at the Del Mar meeting a bolt of lightning will strike every person who tries to baffle the public with this barrage of lies. If not that, at least a little zap from a lie detector enabled taser?
Wondering asked: “Is there a unbiased place to get information on this subject? It seems as though the only info I have is either PRO Toll Road or ANTI Toll Road and both sides seem to be making some distortions.”
If you go onto the pro-tollroad site ( http://www.relievetraffic.org ) and look for the pros & cons section, you’ll see the points brought up at various meetings, and the rebuttals from the pro-tollroad people.
While you might not be comfortable with the source, if you take the time to read all the pros & cons, you’ll notice that without exception the cons are mostly speculative ramblings, at best, by ordinary citizens, while the pros are backed by legitimate qualified sources.
It was VERY obvious to me, that the anti people had a constant string of misleading statements - kind of like trying to wear down reason and truth by just continuing to try to shout over it.
If you read them all, and conclude that I’m wrong, then at least you’ve looked at the widest possible gathering of information - both pro & con. I couldn’t ask for more. If we still disagree, then I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree.
Good luck in coming to an understanding.
On this website I have read the various arguments for and against the current development plan put forth by the TCA, and here is what I find:
1. Proponents of the plan say that terminating the 241 toll road at the TCA’s planned San Mateo Wilderness & San Onofre State Beach site is necessary and appropriate. There is no alternate path/alignment that serves all the economic, environmental, and recreational needs of California citizens at large.
2. Opponents of the plan say that terminating the 241 toll road at the TCA’s planned San Mateo Wilderness/San Onofre State Beach site is unnecessary and inappropriate. There are many alternate paths/alignments that serve all the economic, environmental, and recreational needs of California citizens at large far better than the TCA’s current plan.
I asked myself, a citizen of Orange County for 27 years with no political or economic affiliation to any interested party on either side of the argument, some fundamental questions about this issue, and here are my answers:
Q: Who uses the 241 toll road today?
A: People who live and work in communities along the 241 between Foothill Ranch and Ladera Ranch. [I am sure there are people who live in Oceanside and work in Anaheim, and vice versa, who may use the current 241 toll road for commuting purposes, but they are and will always be the minority by far.]
Q: Who will benefit from the toll road extension?
A: 1) The Rancho Mission Viejo Company (RMVC), who has published its plan to develop the last unsettled portion of their private property. 2) The developers of the toll road (the TCA, unless I am mistaken). 3) Sempra Energy, Cox Communications, Waste Management, and other infrastructure service providers who will provide residential and business services to the people/enterprises who decide to live/work on the newly developed RMVC property. 4) People who currently live in Eastern/Southeastern Orange County and work in San Clemente or San Diego County.
Q: How many people fall into Category 4 above?
A: Very few.
Q: How many tax-paying California citizens will be imposed upon by the development of a toll road on protected state public lands set aside for recreation and wilderness preservation?
A: All of them.
Q: Is the potential extinction of the Southern Steelhead Trout in the last protected, fully intact coastal watershed important to all Californians?
A: No. However, in my opinion, people in Northern California, Oregon, Washington State, and Alaska can tell you that viable populations of anadromous fish are crucially important to their economy for tourism reasons if not agricultural reasons, and that they are an indisputable markers for a watershed’s overall health.
Q: Who deserves the right to decide whether this state’s public parks and designated wildernesses should have privately-managed for-profit toll roads built within their boundaries?
A: All tax-paying California citizens.
Q: Did the construction of the the Joaquin Hills Transportation Corridor (73 toll road) improve traffic conditions along Interstate 5 between Costa Mesa and San Juan Capistrano in either direction?
A: No. Anyone who has used I-5 to travel from South Orange County to Central OC and back regularly since that toll road was built can attest to that. At this point, the fastest (and by far the cheapest) route by car from South OC to Central OC in in the HOV lane on I-5, but you have to either carpool or drive a designated hybrid or CNG/LPG/Electric car to enjoy that.
Q: Are you a hypocrite if you oppose the current TCA toll road plan/alignment and use the 73 or the existing 241 or the 261 or the 91 toll roads?
A: No. Development of those toll roads did not involve encroachment upon state parks and designated wilderness areas. Those roads are in place - use them or not, they aren’t going away.
With all that said, here is where I stand:
I am not a “Liberal” who thinks sagebrush has as much right to exist as I do and that all development is an injustice, and I am not a “Conservative” who thinks that a profitable business sector is the best way to secure a prosperous future for all. I am a Moderate who believes business interests and social interests must strike a balance. I am also a Christian who believes that The Lord gave us a perfect world and asked us to shepherd it and its people with His son as our role model. I respect the rights of private landholders, and that they have the right to construct and destruct their lands so long as public lands are not harmed or degraded in the process. Public land is owned by every legal, tax-paying citizen of California.
Unfortunately, that is not the way the world works. The world is driven by money, which is a medium of exchange and a measure of value. If the land in its current state is more valuable to the California citizenry at large than it would be were it permanently changed by road construction, then it should remain intact.
I believe that the citizens of California will find that the value of six lanes of road between Ladera Ranch and the San Diego-Orange County line is far lower than that of one of the most frequented State Parks in California as well as the last intact coastal watershed and designated wilderness area in Southern California. You may believe that the toll road extension will relieve traffic congestion along Interstate 5 between Irvine and San Clemente, apparently because you have looked at a population density map of the county and reviewed traffic studies and have determined that more commuters travel from Yorba Linda/Villa Park/Foothill Ranch to San Diego County than from Santa Ana/Irvine/Costa Mesa to San Diego County. [Remember: everyday commuters make toll roads viable, not weekend travelers.] I am not buying it.
Then again, if the 241 toll road is built and it ultimately experiences year after year of unprofitable operation as other TCA-built toll roads have, I guess I will be buying it. . .and so will my fellow taxpayers, like it or not, as we have before.
I actually like toll roads in theory because they eliminate free riders, people who don’t pay their fair share, but the current alignment of this toll road is unsupportable. The TCA needs to write a check to the federal government and/or the City of San Clemente and buy the land adjacent to our public lands (if it is even for sale) and get their road built if that is their will, but they need to take their eyes off OUR land. It is OUR land.
As a strong advocate FOR the tollroad extension, I resent the implications of the following statement from the Register, at the beginning of this blog:
Hundreds – if not thousands – of Surfrider Foundation activists and others are expected to show up at the meeting to rally against the toll road.
First of all, you’ve given the Surfrider Foundation”s link without giving the corresponding Pro-tollroad advocate’s link, which is: http://www.relievetraffic.org
Then, you incorrectly suggest that the objective of the meeting is only to rally AGAINST the tollroad extension.
If you look at the for or against numbers of the included poll, you’ll quickly ascertain that there are MORE voters in favor of the tollroad extension, than those opposed to it.
Hopefully, there will be similar percentages, for or opposed, at the meeting in Del Mar. I will be there, and obviously, I am FOR the extension.
You Build It and They Will Come! Remember toll road fans instead of one crowded freeway there will eventually be two. Yes we will relieve some of the congestion for while but faster transportation and shorter travel times A L W A Y S drive growth in outer lying areas which in turn will eventually add congestion. The proof is most of the freeways and highways built in Southern California. Transportation always drives growth. We will be back to where we started but with two crowded, dirty, fume spewing, noisy, and gritty freeways instead of one.
Traffic snarls are the pits! But this traffic will exist even after the Toll Road. Traffic should continue to motivate people (as it does now) to avoid peak travel times and that dreaded choke point. Some people have even been coaxed out of their cars on to mass transit. As long as we stick with the present paradigm it will reinforce our ‘one car, one driver’ mentality. It will accelerate growth in ecologically sensitive and fire prone areas and discourage much needed development and usage of mass transit.
Save the Beach!!!!
This is a Toll Road that just allows the “Real Housewives of Orange County” to get to the beach faster!
Roads are important but beaches are more important.
Once it is built it can NEVER BE TAKEN BACK!
Do you want your children to see a natural environment or an artificial asphalt wasteland that allows self centered people to get to work faster?
Think of the future. There are other options to improve road conditions.
SAVE THE BEACH!
I am happy to see there are a lot of Orange County people who have waken up to the realities around them. The business as usual needs to stop and real progress is looking for viable solutions to traffic other than another concrete ribbon across our hillsides. MAYBE THE TCA SHOULD SPEND MONEY ON A LIGHT RAIL SYSTEM IN OC! WHY ARE WE IN THE 21st CENTURY WITHOUT PLANNING FOR THAT. FOR THOSE WHO HATE TRAFFIC TO SAN DIEGO ON WEEKENDS, THERE IS ALWAYS AMTRAK. FOR THOSE WHO SAY THE TRESTLE IS OILY, IT STILL ONLY TAKES ABOUT TEN FT WIDTH OF SPACE NOT 10 LANES OF CONSTANT TRAFFIC. I am concerned with Trestles, but more I would hate to see a freeway crossing across Ortega Hwy in some of OC’s last oak woodlands, riparian environments, etc. Granted the MV company is going to build 14,000 homes there, but I think most will already be on their farming operations, and hopefully, as stewards of the land, they will plan the development to fit in with the rural landscape.
What kind of name is Sighburrdood? Do you mean Cyber dude? Idiot. No wonder why he wants a tollroad.
Sighburrdood,
You’re response was as I suspected. Oddly enough, the source of information I suggested is free of bias, yet you still refuse to investigate… or don’t want to admit to the findings.
It’s easy to speculate the reasons why, but I won’t bother.
I am an Orange County native, born and raised (1968), and live in Laguna Niguel. Watched the orange groves plowed for housing tracts… and bean and strawberry fields turn into high rises, and condo complexes. Obviously playing the long time local card on me doesn’t work… but hey, it was worth a shot, right?
I’d argue about what is and is not a practical solution, but I think you’ve made your point quite clear…. Thanks dood!
JJ said to me: “Oddly enough, the source of information I suggested is free of bias, yet you still refuse to investigate… or don’t want to admit to the findings.”
You asked if I was familiar with the OCTA’s report. Here’s an update, youngster.
On Feb. 27, 2007, the Orange County Transportation Authority
(OCTA) reaffirmed its support for Foothill-South as a necessary
traffic relief project. OCTA Chair Carolyn Cavecche stated
“construction of Foothill-South would provide congestion relief
to the region.”
Another reason my advocacy is crystal clear.
Oh for those proponents of the tollroad who will probably tell me to go ride on AMTRAK so the rest of you can have space on the road, well I have, and did it for 3 years commuting to San Diego from San Juan because I didn’t want to drive and waste gas. The trains were full of people, which warrants the need to expand the rail system. I love people who say OC is not dense enough for rail. It works in every other city and get’s people out of cars to enjoy the remaining beauty, albeit dwindling beauty, without driving.
Thank you and good night.
Sighburrdood, you’re a super freaky tripper. Maybe your age has gotten the best of you. Please shut up and go away, you make no sense.
F
What were you thinking Arnold?!?
You lost my support the moment you switch your policy regarding the 241.
You are the ELECTED Governor of California, and Trestles is what California is all about. We need you to protect our public resources, not destroy them. Nixon and Reagan fought to protect this land, and thousands of people have benefitted because of it.
Besides, you’re a pretty fit guy and I certain that one good wave would have you running back to our side.
I wouldn’t even be able to afford to drive on this road!!!!!
Sometimes, the best things in life cause a little “inconvience”. If sitting in five minutes of traffic is too terribly inconvienient, I suggest you move closer to your work!
Anti-toll road supporters, keep fighting! Do not accept defeat without putting up a fight!
I have a dream that my children will learn to surf in the clean, protected, and magical waters of SanO!!!!
Shame on you TCA and Governor Schwarzenegger for trying to take away something that isn’t yours to take.
One more thing for you proponents for the tollroad. The traffic on I-5 that goes down to San Diego every weekend will not be eliminated with the tollroad. This is a regional problem. Traffic on I-5 is bumper to bumper on summer weekends all the way down through Oceanside, Carlsbad and Encinitas. A real successful tollroad would be one which ran all the way down to the Mexican border. That’s not going to happen. All this tollroad does is create a bottleneck at San Onofre, for southbound traffic. Northbound traffic on Sunday is usually not bad until Pico, so people will continue to choose free over toll when going north. The traffic is bad through San Clemente because I-5 becomes narrower. I don’t see how an additional lane will create an eminent domain issue, but if it does, I am sure those who live behind the freeway now will not mind getting paid fair market value to locate in a quieter area of San Clemente. I know if I currently lived behind noisy I-5, I would be waiting with open arms for Caltrans to pay for my house so I could live in a quieter street. And remember, eminent domain requires just compensation. Again though, the real solution for OC is a mass transit system that links all the places people travel to like John Wayne Airport, South Coast Plaza, Irvine Business District, Disneyland, Angels Stadium, and large business centers in between. If only the transportation planners in OC had the same idea, what a great place this would be. I’ve been to London, Paris, NYC, and they seem to work there. I can’t make the Feb.6 meeting, but I encourage all oponents of the tollroad to mention mass transit as a viable solution. COME ON PEOPLE
Sig-bur-whatever,
I stand by my statement that you are a complete idiot. I am indeed glad that I have your respect as of now.
Please inform me why you are laughing out loud at the notion of Mass Transit. Reality Check: it works. I carpool regularly, but that is besides the point. I have taken Amtrack from Tustin to Union Station. What point are you trying to make with these statements? Are you trying to belittle me? Clearly it isn’t working.
You lose the right to live in Southern California when you cease to respect and admire the things that make this place different from a state like Wyoming, for instance. I could care less about seniority, why should you be allowed to live here if you can’t respect the natural beauty of the land?
Instead of repeatedly posting the TCA’s own website as a ’scientific’ source for your irrational thoughts (the site should actually read http://www.increasetraffic.com), maybe you should just seriously meet me at the meeting in Del Mar. Surely you wouldn’t have anything to fear in a healthy conversation with a 9th generation Californian born in 1987. I’m sorry, but your age, and current residence in RSM do not negate the need for you to raise legitimate points instead of calling people who oppose the toll roads “tree-hugging stay at home moms, or surfer-dudes”
I have repeatedly posted reasons why people are against the toll road. They are not lies…they are not fabrications. Get a clue.
get a clue folks. we do not need another toll road here, or anywhere. the cost of nature comes cheep to greed. we need all the open land we can hang onto. toll fee’s keep going up to fill the pockets. this is what we pay taxes for. how many times can you pay over taxes? & this is what you want to leave to generations? fee’s over open land ? mismanagement, when does it end. if you want to ease traffic, put a mass transit tram down the center of the highway’s. the people that have been involved in this from way before said it was a joke, a money thing. get back some common sense !
I have surfed tressles for over 40 years and love it. But could someone tell me how building a freeway connection east of the 5 freeway will effect the surf break? Did building the 5 fwy ruin tressles when it was built? if anything, the proposal will make the water coming down from San Mateo creek cleaner. I think this is just an other “not in my backyard” cry. If you really want to do something positive, stop the building of new homes, than we will not need anymore new roads.
I just noticed that there is a $9. fee for parking at the fairgrounds. Also, if attending the meeting, be aware that there is a strict time limit for “telling your side”, ( no more than 3 minutes, probably far less, depending upon the number of people who REGISTER to speak.) AND that each “side” gets equal time ( alternating.) to speak. ( So much for overwhelming the “other side” by shear numbers.)
All of this information is obtained by clicking on the “Click here” link in the 2nd paragraph at the top of this blog.
There has been some comment by others that I am biased in my suggestion that people visit the Pro-tollroad website: http://www.relievetraffic.org to read the pros & cons voiced so far by all sides.
In that portion of the website are actual statements, available for your perusal on such sites as SaveTrestles.com, SaveSanOnofre.com, and of course Surfrider.org. Alongside the statements that are published on those sites are TCA’s rebuttals to each statement.
I HAVE looked at all the Anti-tollroad sitesmentioned above, and the statements shown on http://www.relievetraffic.org are accurate depictions of the anti statements attributed to those websites.
I am therefore led to conclude that the rebuttals offered by the TCA are accurate also, in their effectively shooting down most of the emotionally charged claptrap repeatedly voiced by the Anti forces.
The Anti forces have continually used bumpersticker slogans filled with lies and deceptions, in an attempt to rally support, and have succeeded in doing so. It is OBVIOUS that most of the Anti people who have posted in this blog, really have NOT read the facts, but have instead listened to and embraced the lies.
In the numerous posts I have made here I have told the absolute truth about my lengthy local experiences, and opinions, as they relate to this issue. I have been called an an idiot - twice ( by a 20 year old college student who, at best, has been driving all of 3 or 4 years, AND who, it appears, might not even own a car.) and bombarded by others with the same deceptive “facts” posted on the Anti websites, to the point of becoming battle-weary.
It is always difficult to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. I will save my energy for the meeting next Wednesday.
By the way, I mentioned the $9. parking fee above, figuring that would wipe out about half the Anti posters above, who probably can’t afford that fee any more than they can afford driving on the existing tollroads - even though it’s a proven fact - to me, anyway - that doing so costs me less in cash paid for tolls, than the cash I would have spent on gas going on an alternate route. ( Also, don’t forget it will probably cost between $15-20 in gas, to make the round-trip to Del Mar.)
I hope to see you there.
Sighburrdood ,
Do you feel alone on a island ? People are writing in concerned about protecting something that is a valuable resource The Ocean !Wildlife ,a state park.You are fighting for a freeway ? I really dont see any good , positive points to favor your argument .Plus you say you have lived here forever, you must be retired so I dont understand why you are in a hurry to go anywhere ? Also the only 14,000 homes question that you never answered ?
JJ said to me: I did your homework for you!!!!!!!!
Interesting that the link you sent me was from 06, while the Pro-tollroad statement that I sent you previously was from 07. Also, no where on the link you sent me was there a negative statement about the tollroad extension, so I’m not clear on what point you THOUGHT you were making.
You seem to have embraced the Anti tollroad “Beltway” as an alternative to the extension. Bear in mind the beltway is a hypothetical concoction, not even submitted to the County Supervisors, whereby the extension has been “on the County’s books” for over 20 years.
The far fetched Beltway proposal does NOTHING to alleviate the issue that most of us Pro-tollroad advocates are clamoring about: The horrendous traffic we face NOW, every weekend heading South toward San Diego/Mexico. Perhaps you personally have never headed South on the weekend? Don’t worry - without the extension, within 10 years that traffic jam will be an EVERYDAY occurrance.
The toll road will connect commuters? I don’t get it. Who lives at one end and works at the other? I dont’ see a major work center or population center at either end. Is this so that people in Orange County or even Corona/inland empire can have a faster commute to …. Oceanside? North San Diego County? Or the other way around?
That doesn’t make sense. Why would anyone have such a long commute anyway? Living closer and driving less is the answer, not building another road. Unless, of course, the road is going to also bring new homes for the people that want to live closer. Kind of sounds like the 73, doesn’t it?
Now there was a good idea……
Don’t build it. Who cares about the surfers. It simply isn’t a solution to anything worthwhile. .
Pete said to me:
“People are writing in concerned about protecting something that is a valuable resource The Ocean !Wildlife ,a state park.You are fighting for a freeway ? I really dont see any good , positive points to favor your argument . Also the only 14,000 homes question that you never answered ?”
Obviously you’ve swallowed the lies from the Anti group. According to scientific sources that are displayed prominantly on the Pro-tollroad website: http://www.relievetraffic.org there will be virtually NO damage to the Ocean, wildlife, or the state park. Feel free to read it. ( ANY informed citizen SHOULD read both sides of an issue.)
I’ve read the pros and cons and choose to believe the Pro-tollroad’s version of what will take place. If YOU read both sides, and conclude differently, that is your prerogative and right. At such a point we can agree to disagree.
As for the 14,000 homes to be built out Ortega Hwy, very few will even see the tollroad. Antonio Pkwy is going to be widened. Ortega Hwy is going to be re-routed and widened. And many of those future residents ( We’re talking at LEAST 5 years away.) WILL use the future extension, just as we people who live near existing tollroads use THEM on a regular basis. ( Saving in less gas consumed than in tolls paid.) ( AND saving valuable time, which means less time for our cars to be polluting surface streets, on our way to a freeway.)
The point I tried to make about those 14,00 houses is this: There is very little land left for development in Orange County. Those bare hills you see, for the most part, will stay that way because they are Federal land. ( The Cleveland National Forest.)
I’ve read many assertions on these posts by ill-informed people suggesting that the tollraod extension will be lined with strip malls, industrial buildings, and of course, more houses.
HERE is the truth, about that. Other than the above 14,000 home project, little of which will be seen from the tollroad, MOST of the building that COULD take place has already happened OR cannot happen because the land is either National Forest or Military owned.
Talega, for example, will be pretty much finished by the time the tollroad passes by - behind a ridge.
The reality is that most of the future tollroad will look like the present stretch between Antonio Pkwy in RSM, and Oso Pkwy in Las Flores. There is not ONE strip mall, industrial building, or house within close proximity to the tollroad, in that area. There IS a school - Tesoro H.S., but that’s about it.
The TCA has been FORCED by countless regulatory entities to take extraordinary measures to protect the Ocean, wildlife, AND the state park. Where many Anti people make preposterous statement that the TCA is going to concrete over the state park, the actual amount used is less than .02%. Can we talk miniscule, here?
Again, seek the truth, read both sides, and draw an informed decision. Who could ask for more?
i don’t understand why they can’t just build the toll road east of the 5 or on top of the five and make it a double decker freeway, there is obiviously the technology so why not use it. everyone it so busy and has no time to sit back and look at nature, God’s gift to us. There is a bunch of land east of the 5 right after you pass christianitos going south. I think it may be part of camp pendelton but why not cut in there a little bit, maybe it will help end the war. hahah funny joke. but really next time you drive down the 5 south, take a look at all the empty land east of the 5 from a little bit before basilone almost all the way to o-side. use your head
Sighburdood,
You still have not answered the questions ? I worked on a project for three months this summer driving from OC to San Diego and I dont remember sitting in traffic that much except for by the Del Mar fair which is three weeks out of the year and yes I did go on weekends as well . Maybe you should get up a little earlier to beat the traffic ? Wow what an Idea . You could get where you want to go and we can still use our state park ?
San Onofre is a STATE PARK. If you develop one State Park, then no State Park is safe. Then we lose the last of our open space and we become Manhattan. If that is OK with you then go live in Manhattan. We are only trying to keep this beautiful place we call California.
We must stop this private, money-grubbing toll road! There are better solutions that don’t require paving a California treasure.
Hi Pete,
You stated: “I worked on a project for three months this summer driving from OC to San Diego and I dont remember sitting in traffic that much except for by the Del Mar fair which is three weeks out of the year and yes I did go on weekends as well”
Did your commute happen to start North of the El Toro “Y”? If so, and you missed traffic, you must have started before 6am.
Most of the people going South, for a leisurely weekend, start after 8am, and by then the traffic, before you get down to the “Y” is starting to bog down - ESPECIALLY through Mission Viejo & San Juan.
Commuters tend to leave earlier because their jobs have normal hours - you were likely AT your job, when most people were just getting into their cars.
As for answering a question - the ONLY question of yours that I didn’t address was: Do you feel alone on a island ?
The answer is NO.
I’m in favor of the Toll Road extension.
Born and raised in OC, I’ve seen this time and time again. People come here because the of the great weather and economy and as soon as they get here they want to change things. I’ve seen so many things that made OC great slowly go away. What ever happened to all the orange trees o’yeah they had to make more houses and destory what open little space we had left. What about Irvine meadow’s (verizon to you transplants) o’yeah let’s tear it down we need more houses. What about taking a drive down to the beach, you can if you want to sit on the 55 for 2 hours. I could go on and on. OC is not what it use to be and don’t expect it to get any better with more and more people coming, it’s a waste land now. Leave Trestles alone and pick up some trash on your way out and leave OC how you found it.
WHEN YOU LOOK PAST ALL THE PROPAGANDA FROM THESE
TROLL ROAD PUMPERS WHO ARE JOCKEYING TO BE THE FIRST
TO PUFF DONALD BREN (DEVELOPER WORTH
10BILLION DOLLARS WHO OWNS IRVINE, THE TCA AND
SCHWARTENAGER) THE REALITY IS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT
PAVING A POPULAR STATE PARK SO DON BREN AND THE RANCH
OWNERS CAN PROFIT. THIS ISNT ABOUT “REDUCING TRAFFIC”
LIEK THE TCA PR MACHINE SAYS (WHICH BTW ONLY RAILS OR
SIGNIFICANT POP REDUCTIN WILL DO) - ITS ABOUT CASH, AND
THE GREED OF DEVELOPERS AND HEAVY CONSTRUCTION
CONTRACTORS. END THE TROLL ROAD, END OF STORY.
This sighberDOOD kook must be getting paid to ransack this message board with his hate mail. His job depends on this tollroad getting shoved up our cracks. He either works for the TCA or he is one of those developers that is gonna make big bucks off of development that will surely spring up around the toll road if it is built.
I have read the info from the dark side but I believe it to be all lies. The TCA is a bunch of liers. The fact is that the toll road will do nothing to relieve traffic. The toll road will degrade the quality of the creek and the adjacent coastline. I have been going to these beaches since I was 7 years old. I am 29 now. I feel strongly about protecting these places of sanctity and the inland portion of the state park as well. I enjoy hiking and riding my mountain bike in the inland part of the park. You should check it out Sighberkook. It is beautiful. Roads are not beautiful. Roads Kill. You are advocating murder. Murderer.
Sighberdood,
How can you be so sure that our Federal land won’t be built on, when people like you are so quick to sign away public lands? I’m not too worried about you gettting a good night sleep. If you want to avoid traffic, set your alarm. When you get to San Diego, you can go for a run or read a book. whola! Problem solved.
This is a slipperly slope.
Molly said: “How can you be so sure that our Federal land won’t be built on?”
Well, Molly, I don’t know of an occasion yet, when National forest land has been turned over or sold to private interests, although theoretically, I suppose it could happen. El Toro was a military installation and THAT will be built upon - the Great Park, in Irvine.
There have been other military bases closed and converted to private use - the one in Tustin, is another.
As for signing away public lands, there is a misconception, voiced a lot, here, that the San Mateo campgrounds are going to be paved over. The TRUTH is, the tollroad’s closest point to the campgrounds is over 385 feet away. Have you ever stood at the end of the end zone on a football field and looked at someone standing at the end of the other end zone? They would look like a speck. And that is less than 385 feet. By the way, the State knew of the tollroad’s probability BEFORE they signed the lease for the campground. ( it was Federal land, traded for the property for the nuclear facility.)
As for starting early, to San Diego, that’s fine - I would probably leave Friday afternoon. However, in my weekend travels throughout South O.C., I learned a long time ago to avoid the 5 on Saturday mornings and Sunday afternoons, if I could.
Obviously not everyone on the freeway at those times are going to or from San Diego. How bout the poor guy who wants to go to Trestles, or San Onofre? ( Yeah, I know - most surfers start really early.)
See you in Del Mar
SC Fool said to me:
“I have read the info from the dark side but I believe it to be all lies. The TCA is a bunch of liers. The fact is that the toll road will do nothing to relieve traffic. The toll road will degrade the quality of the creek and the adjacent coastline. I have been going to these beaches since I was 7 years old. I am 29 now. I feel strongly about protecting these places of sanctity and the inland portion of the state park as well. I enjoy hiking and riding my mountain bike in the inland part of the park. You should check it out Sighberkook. It is beautiful. Roads are not beautiful. Roads Kill. You are advocating murder. Murderer.”
Pretty strong language, even for a Fool. Sorry you feel that way, but like I’ve posted before, all I can ask is that you look at both sides. ( of course, reading comprehension would PROBABLY come in handy, as well.)
You have your opinion, I have mine. I DO resent being labled a “murderer”, but that too, is your right. ( It might NOT be a good idea to say it to my face, in Del Mar, though.)
See you in Del Mar?
Many of you are either not aware or forgetting that the Toll Road will also ruin mountain bike trails. The San Clemente single tracks is the perfect example.
I too do not understand how this will ruin the beach, but I fail to understand that if this road extension is so important, why can’t it be a public highway?
Why does a a private company get to charge whatever they want for usage (like the 91 expressway - $8 for a few miles of road that is ON a public highway!) and then also use public money to maintain it?
OK, if no state/public money is available, make it a flat rate - don’t rape the users of the road during busy times, do not ever use any public money to help build or maintain it. Once you do that, the road should be free for all users.
Finally, will this really help the majority of the people who use the 5? I live in Irvine, smack in the middle of the 5 and the 405. I never drive down to the 73 when the freeways are backed up, I just take surface streets or *gasp*, sacrifice a few extra minutes of my life.
I see the traffic (or lack thereof) on the 73 all the time while out mountain biking or riding road (during the day, often at peak hours) and the 73 is always empty. I really doubt that helped to alleviate congestion on the 5.
I believe it’ll be the same for the 241. No way I would drive up to that road and pay to use it just to save a few minutes of time. I’d probably loose more time trying to get to it, then I would by staying on the 5 anyway.
Now imagine all of the commuters who do drive 20 or 40 miles each way. I doubt many of them would choose to go out of their way to pay to use this road - as the 73 seems to have proved.
Cyber Kook do you work for TCA or the Irvine company or are you a pedophile as you’re creepy screen name suggests????????????
Again you’re ignoring the argument to pump out the TCA propaganda.
This project is not about traffic. It is so that Donald Bren (worth 10 billion dollars) can work with the Ranch developers to build another cota de caza golf enclave with 20,000 stucco mcmansions. This phenomenon, the wealthy paying 10$ to drive 5 miles to their mcmansion - is called rural gentrification.
Although cant blame the wealthy for wanting to move to the fringes and get away from the filth that most of soCal is and the developers for making ungodly amounts of money by selling this lifestyle as the American dream, i do not think anyone should be allowed to violate state park land to perpetrate it. Basically I’m saying make Bren buy the easements and stay off the public land, END THE TROLL ROAD END OF STORY KOOK.
Cyber Kook do you work for TCA or the Irvine company ????????????
Again you’re ignoring the argument to pump out the TCA propaganda.
This project is not about traffic. It is so that DonaldBren (worth 10 billion dollars) can work with the Ranch developers to build another cota de caza golf enclave with 20,000 stucco mcmansions. This phenomenon, the wealthy paying 10$ to drive 5 miles to their mcmansion - is called rural gentrification.
Although cant blame the wealthy for wanting to move to the fringes and get away from the filth that most of soCal is and the developers for making ungodly amounts of money by selling this lifestyle as the American dream, i do not think anyone should be allowed to violate state park land to perpetrate it. Basically I’m saying make Bren buy the easements and stay off the public land, END THE TROLL ROAD END OF STORY.
yes, who cares about destroying our local environment, as long as it gets me to my destination a little quicker. (i say this tongue-in-cheek, of course).
How many more roads is it going to take to relieve traffic in Southern California? Its highly doubtful that adding another toll road will help traffic. It sure as hell did not help the 91 freeway, the only thing private roads will do is line the pockets of the TCA. This time at the cost of one of California’s most unique stretches of coastline and habitat. TCA environmental impact reports (EIR) are heavily biased and lack credible scientific data to back their claims. Maybe we should be looking at alternatives to building more roads, such as building high speed rails and the likes.
Next time your stuck in traffic on the I5 sitting alone in your car, look around good chance no one around you is carpooling either. So as you sit there and bitch about sitting in traffic, understand you are part of the problem. Making more roads that eventually have to merge back into the same traffic clogged freeways is not a solution, just a postponement of what is already a bigger problem. Ca
uuuuh oh whats gonna happen if someone calls you a murderer to your face in Del Mar??
Only an idiot would make that kind of threat. Once again, point proven;
sighburdood = idiot
i’ll see YOU in Del Mar, possibly wearing a shirt that says you are a murdering idiot
How do we know who you are ? Will you be wearing a sign that says I am sighburrdood , I dont like nature I like to drive fast ! I have a strange feeling you are not too intimidating ?
Sighburrdood,
I’d venture to say that most in the county are primarily interested in traffic during their daily commute, meaning peak hours…. If the toll roads were a solution for the majority of the general public, it would be reasonable to expect that the OCTA projections would reflect that. Obviously they don’t….
I’m amazed that you can’t get beyond the propaganda on both sides to recognize that this project fails to address the bigger problems to any degree of significance.
I find it odd that you are pushing for a road that, (if built) when completed you will be at the tail end of your driving years. Your motivations are just that…. yours, but from the outside one could guess and say you have a finanial interest in the project.
One thing I’m certain of…. in a day where big business is often sorely lacking ethics and political corruption runs rampant, the saying holds true…. money is the root of all evil.
Regardless of how extreme it is to call you a murderer, you should probably leave the internet tough guy thing alone. Heaven forbid someone takes you up on that offer…. and you (or they) get more than bargained for. You’re 60yrs old or so, right? I’d say you still have some growing up to do… and I wouldn’t consider it wise to challenge someone 30yrs your junior. We may disagree, but promoting (even insinuating) violence is no rational answer.
I’m just trying to be a voice of reason and not one to tell you what to do…… so by all means, do what you like.
Signing out!
ps…. Hi Bob!!!
toll roads suck big, juicy, dare i say it, DICK. large dicks take root in the mouthes of toll roads. big, fat, sweaty, well you get the picture. SAVE TRESTLES. right on
Talk about the 3 stooges!
Mark Cole said to me:
“uuuuh oh whats gonna happen if someone calls you a murderer to your face in Del Mar?? i’ll see YOU in Del Mar, possibly wearing a shirt that says you are a murdering idiot”
SC Fool said to me:
“And maybe I will be wearing a SighberKook is a murderering idiot shirt as well.”
JJ said to me:
“you should probably leave the internet tough guy thing alone. Heaven forbid someone takes you up on that offer…. and you (or they) get more than bargained for. You’re 60yrs old or so, right? I’d say you still have some growing up to do… and I wouldn’t consider it wise to challenge someone 30yrs your junior. We may disagree, but promoting (even insinuating) violence is no rational answer.”
What a bunch of school kids. Well, at least you’ll be easy to recognize, LOL - in your matching T-shirts. The 3 of you certainly are the poster children for the voices of reason.
JJ said: “We may disagree, but promoting (even insinuating) violence is no rational answer.” And calling someone a murderer doesn’t into any such category? Excuse me, does JJ stand for Juvenile Jerk?
I’ll be the frail little old guy hiding behind Governor Arnold, LOL.
See you in Del Mar
WONDERING ASKED: “Is there an unbiased place to get information on this subject?”
I know that with all the information that’s floating around on this subject it can be really hard for someone who isn’t familiar with the issue to know what’s true and what’s not. But I think I can help you!
First of all, DON’T listen to the people telling you to go to the BIASED pro-toll road site (relievetraffic.net or whatever it is) to get UN-biased information! I think the anti-toll road sites are excellent, accurate, and informative. But I’m not going to give you those websites either. You want neutral information, right? So instead, look at it this way: Even if you don’t visit either side’s website or talk to someone on either side, all you have to do is just look what’s happened here in OC so far and form an opinion about future actions. Here are the facts*** so far…
-The TCA has constructed the 73 toll road.
-The 73 toll road led to more development in area in which it was built.
-The 73 toll road is losing money hand over fist, due in large part to the fact that usage is WAY lower than projected (The average citizen can’t/won’t pay the high tolls). The bonds they sold to pay for initial construction costs are worthless – dropped to ‘junk bond’ status. Their sister toll road agency was forced to send them huge bailout. In 2003, they asked for $100 million in federal handouts.
-Since only a small fraction of commuters are willing to shell out the money for the tolls to use the 73, what’s everyone else doing? Yup, you guessed it: Sitting in gridlock on the 405 and 5 with you and me.
-When building the 73 the TCA promised to install super-duper water filters to catch the dirty highway runoff and preventing pollution and damage to the environment.
-The TCA’s super-duper water filters failed to perform as advertised (gee, what a surprise!) and ended up making a big mess.
-The faulty filters on the 73 had to be replaced…at the expense of the taxpayer! That’s right, you and I paid to clean up the TCA’s mess…a mess that wasn’t there before their road was built.
NOW, fast forward to present…
You’ll notice I didn’t say anything about San Onofre, Trestles, endangered species, state parks, surfing, or anything relating to the CURRENT toll road proposal. But just based on past events, you must form an opinion on this current proposal. Taking into consideration what’s happened previously, you must decide if the following proposal sounds like a great idea:
OK, the same folks who brought you the disaster known as the 73 want to build yet another toll road. But this time they are promising you it WILL help solve traffic problems (even though their past project did not). They are promising you that it WILL NOT harm the environment (even though their past project did). They are promising you that the open space/wilderness will not be ruined and turned into track homes, Starbucks, and gas stations (even though their last project generated tons of new development). They are promising you that it IS a financially sound plan (even though their last project has turned into a financial disaster). They are promising you that they road will be paid for with tolls (even though their last project ended up getting our hard-earned tax dollars).
Hmmmmmm….does this new plan or theirs sound like a great idea? Did their last plan turn out to be a great idea? Can we trust them? The answers are pretty obvious, eh? It’s not a real tough decision: I (along with the majority of OC) think his toll road idea SUCKS! What do YOU think?
***(You don’t have to visit any of the anti-toll road or pro-toll road websites to find these facts. Go to your local library or city/county records office and do some research. Most of this stuff was reported by local media. Hell, even the pro-TCA cheerleading squad over at the OC Reg ran stories on some of this stuff.)
you sound a little butthurt sighburrkook…
if anyone else read this conversation they probalby would think that the three of us were the voice(s) of reason.
you didn’t even address the point that JJ made. Its alright, I’ll address it for you: calling someone a murder actually DOES NOT fit into the category of promoting/insinuating violence. What is this example #3 of why you are an idiot? Name calling is very different from threatening violence. Simple right?
Sounds like you’re the one who needs to do the growing up. It’s pretty sad when you are 60 years old and getting a lecture on maturity by a 20 year old college student / “school kid”.
Save trestles, maybe people should start car pooling and getting involved in saving the environment. Realize the negative effects of our rapid building and growth. Save some of the last true beautys we can.
Sighburrdood,
Like I said, I thought it was a bit extreme to call you a murderer. Not even sure where the poster makes the connection… Take that up with him(her), but law (and common sense) would limit that you do it through means other than violence.
I personally won’t be bothered with a Sighburrdood shirt…. that’d flatter you too much, make you feel like I think you’re important. You’re not, you’re just a countering opinion for the sake of a debate, in the interest of getting my opinion of the toll road out there. I hope there has been a good amount of traffic on this blog… as I think it demonstrates the values and mindset of those that “stand behind” Arnold and the toll road. Again, thanks dood!
It’s a shame that a good debate turns into name calling like “juvenile jerk”. I guess when intelligence and wit fail, some people need to get all puffed up like a WWF ‘character’ and call childish names.
SCF/Mark,
It’s not my place to tell anyone what to do, but this guys not worth getting radical over. If you’re going to argue with him, keep it factual and level headed. If he can’t be reasonable, don’t bother with it. Doing anything else has a negative impact on our cause.
See you down there!!! If you’re looking for good transportation options, you might want to check with Amtrak or Surfrider….. heard there will be buses at the Trestles lot that morning.
wow…nice to know TCA is paying people to come on here and post messages
Geoff said the following:
“The 73 toll road is losing money hand over fist, due in large part to the fact that usage is WAY lower than projected (The average citizen can’t/won’t pay the high tolls). The bonds they sold to pay for initial construction costs are worthless – dropped to ‘junk bond’ status. Their sister toll road agency was forced to send them huge bailout. In 2003, they asked for $100 million in federal handouts.”
Geoff, this is really seriously outdated information. Allow me to bring you up to date: During fiscal year 2007, the 73 earned $89 million, compared to $82 million the previous year. The 73 is not struggling. It is becoming congested in the morning peak commute time. There is now planning or an additional lane along the 73 Toll Road to accommodate future traffic congestion.
You also misstated the following: “When building the 73 the TCA promised to install super-duper water filters to catch the dirty highway runoff and preventing pollution and damage to the environment.
The TCA’s super-duper water filters failed to perform as advertised (gee, what a surprise!) and ended up making a big mess.
The faulty filters on the 73 had to be replaced…at the expense of the taxpayer! That’s right, you and I paid to clean up the TCA’s mess…a mess that wasn’t there before their road was built.”
Again, a total fabrication. Here’s the REAL story.
The filter system on the 73 was a Caltrans’ recommended Best Management Practice to treat storm water runoff. Proper maintenance of the system is required for proper function. After acceptance and installation of the filter system on the 73, Caltrans determined that the maintenance and upkeep of the system was not practical. Caltrans subsequently replaced the filter structures along the 73. The filters on the 73 Toll Road did not break down or cause a water quality problem.
TCA will monitor Caltrans maintenance of the water filters on the southern portion of the 241 Toll Road for the first five years of the project. ( For not only the 241, but for the 5, as well.)
The “facts” you quoted are some of the outdated and totally inaccurate information being spread as gospel to the surfing throng, by Surfrider.org. Cowabunga, dude! If it’s on a website, it must be true, right? WRONG!
Support the tollroad! See you in Del Mar.
California doesn’t need a toll road right trhough Trestles. It will take away from the beauty of the natural surroundings.
To JJ, SC Fool, & Mark Cole,
First of all, JJ, I apologize for lumping you in with the other two “name-callers”. You didn’t stoop that low, and I was wrong to distort YOUR name, in my response to them. I have disagreed with you from the start, but for the most part, you’ve been civil and respectful. Again, I apologize - to you.
As for Mark, in his FIRST response to one of my posts he called me an idiot, and he’s done it 3 times since, adding “murdering idiot” just to punctuate his feelings. And now he has the gall to tell me he’s lecturing ME on maturity.
I have attempted to tell what I perceive as the truth in quite a few posts in this thread - it’s a subject that I feel very strongly about, especially when I see what I consider to be a massive campaign of lies and deception. I have continually submitted that, even if we disagree, all I can ask, it that my “opponent” (?) do his due diligence to try to get all the real facts.
If you read the Anti-tollroad websites and take them as truth, that is your prerogative. I’ve looked at both sides of the issue, and have elected to believe what I read on the Pro-tollroad website. Expressing that belief should NOT subject me to being called an idiot, OR a murderer.
I apologize for calling the 3 of you, the 3 stooges, but after reading your collective taunts of me, I got a little testy.
I do NOT apologize to SC Fool for taking exception to his labeling me a “murderer”. That was an incredibly insensitive and stupid thing to say, totally befitting his chosen name.
Hope to see you all in Del Mar.
Why does Orange county need to grow?
Dont you think it reduces the value of our homes when supply increases and the natural beauty decreases?
Stop thinking more is better, it didnt work for LA and will not work or OC!
…. And why did all of a sudden we have to *pay* for freeways.
Should the gov’t be putting this road in (even though I appose it) for free of charge?
Were getting robbed of our open lands and our wallets!
the way i see it, the only reason developers would want a toll road is so they have a place to build more houses. In case you haven’t noticed they’ve run out of room by the beach for master planned communities. The next best thing would be to make one with traffic free access to one of southern california’s best beaches.
Explain to me why i should want a toll road coming in to the cool little town i live in?
I rarely drive north, and when i do, i pick traffic free times to drive. (ever tried going somewhere in the middle of the day? or night? traffic’s great)
i don’t want to give people an excuse to come down here, i’d like my over-crowded city to remain as relatively small as possible.
its a great place to live and grow up and have a family and retire. i don’t want to share any of that. thats kinda selfish, but i don’t really care.
If people are so concerned about pollution from the SR-241 Toll Road which people allege that no one is going to take, then how can there be a ton of runoff from a road thats not being used? Second I visit the County of Orange specifically Newport Beach. The SR -73 Toll Road is a savior. It has saved me anywhere from 15 to 45 minutes as I get off at the Newport Coast Blvd. offramp and the views are just spectacular, with nothing put pure open space once you get past Aliso Viejo. It’s one of my favorite drives in all of Southern California, and a close 2nd is the SR-241 Toll Road, where you can see the coastal plain of the County of Orange over towards the San Joaquin Foothills. 3rd, these toll roads are only temporary (relatively speaking) for about 35 years. After 35 years they are FREEways. Also, these toll roads are not taxpayer funded. They are funded by the users of these roads. Even if something happens to the Toll Roads with financial problems, the taxpaying public is not responsible for it. With regards to Caltrans, the Transportation Corridor Agencies contract out road maintenance to Caltrans (TCA pays for the maintenance). The reason why I take these roads is because its beautiful to drive on, they are consistently congestion free, and its a stress free to the I-5, I-405, SR-55, and SR-91. Heck in South San Diego County a new toll road just opened down there (SR-125 aka South Bay Expressway) and its a breeze down there. I guess my issue is that people will go out of their way to not use the toll roads just to not use them, clog the true FREEways, waste more gasoline by idling, thus emitting more exhaust fumes in the air, and with stop and go traffic the emissions from the brake pad and create even more pollution into the San Mateo Creek, with no detention basins to collect the runoff. If thats the case why not add detention basins that surround I-5 too, dont just pick on the SR-241 Toll Road. If it wasnt for that 1989 Loma Prieta Quake in San Francisco Bay Area, the solution would be easy to solve traffic, double stack the I-5, more lanes with out building into homes.But that will never happen (eg: see the I-880/Cypress Fwy). Anyways I am for the SR-241 Toll Road extension, thats my 2 cents worth for some one that cares about environment, smart transportation, and fiscal responsiblilty.
Well i would like to complain about the effects of surfers on the environment. I don’t actually live near any at present, thank god, but i did in Australia, the majority were lazy annoying hippies who didn’t cut or wash their hair , an absolute eyesore, also there is clear evidence now emerging that surfboards traumatise waves. Waves should have the freedom to crash uninterrupted towards the beach without having their beautiful form and shape disrupted by surfers (who are most likely skiving off work).
i first surfed at trestles in the mid 70’s when there was lot’s of open space in southern california, now it is one of the very last areas that has not been destroyed, and it needs to stay that way. not just for the surfers and other beachgoing people, but also for the often overlooked wildlife that needs that access.
as for the idiots that say there is already dirty polluting trains coming through, so why not a bunch of cars, it is just a handful of trains per day, and for each gallon of fuel a train burns, it can haul thousands of pounds hundreds of miles. we need no more roads, we have plenty already, we need driving to become even more inconvenient so people will use alternative means of transportation.
i feel no sympathy for the people clogging up the i-5 (if the traffic is such an inconvienience then get off your ass and use the bike path that also runs through the area, or get on the train). and no i am not some flaming left winger, i am a republican, a true republican, a conservative who knows we need to conserve what we have left !!!
wake up people and stop being stupid, stop getting high on those exhaust fumes (they are destroying your brain cells), and start using some common sense…….
surf to live live to surf or die trying to save the future!
Dear Geoff,
Unfortunately there really is no internet site to get unbiased information. The pro-toll roaders are biased by their greed to make a bunch of money through destruction of our natural resources and the anti-toll roaders are biased by their desire to save our precious coastline and foothills. We’ll say whatever it takes to get our way. If you want to get some unbiased information then I suggest that you go to the park and beaches and see for yourself what we will lose if the toll road is built. I suggest that you go down Pico. Then take a right on Avenida La Pata. When you get to the dog park and skate park, get out of your car and take a walk through the back country of the San Onofre State Park. You will see that the park is much more than just beaches. The foothills located inside the park are a very special place and open for use by hikers and bicyclist. I personally enjoy riding my mountainbike there. I hate to imagine what would happen to this place if the TCA got their way. That is why I feel so strongly about saving this place.
Warm Regards,
Mike
I have read this blog and the reasons why proponents believe that terminating the 241 toll road at the TCA’s planned San Mateo Wilderness/San Onofre State Park site is necessary and appropriate.
I have also read the reasons that opponents cite to explain how terminating the toll road at that same site would be at best ineffective in terms of traffic relief, and at worst devastating to the public good.
Consider some fundamental questions:
Q: Who uses the 241 today?
A: People who live in housing communities between Foothill Ranch and Ladera Ranch, and perhaps some people who live in Yorba Linda or Corona and work in South Orange County.
Q: Who will benefit from the toll road extension?
A: 1) The Rancho Mission Viejo Company, 2) The TCA 3) people who currently commute from somewhere along the current portion of the toll road to somewhere south of Ladera Ranch, 4) Sempra and other infrastructure providers 5) people who will live in a housing community along the proposed 241 extension path on Rancho Mission Viejo property planned for development.
Q: How many people fall into Category 3 above?
A: Not many. those who do have a high tolerance for long commutes
Q: How many tax-paying Californians will be imposed upon by the development of a toll road on state public lands set aside for recreation and wilderness preservation?
A: All.
Q: Who deserves the right to decide whether this state’s public parks, beaches and designated wilderness areas should have toll roads built within their boundaries?
A: All Californians.
Q: Did the construction of the 73 toll road improved traffic conditions along Interstate 5 between Costa Mesa and San Juan Capistrano in either direction?
A: No. Anyone who has used I-5 to travel from South Orange County to Central OC and back regularly over the past 15-20 years can attest to that.
I am not a “liberal” who thinks sagebrush has as much right to exist as I do. And I am not a “conservative” who thinks that destruction of nature is a necessary (if not unfortunate) by-product of industrial “progress.” I am a California resident of 27 years who believes private construction involves the owner’s right to construct and destruct (contrast with “develop”), and that public property is off limits to those interests, period.
Of course, that is not the way the world works. The world is driven by money, which is a medium of exchange and a measure of value. If the land in its current state is more valuable to the California citizenry at large than i t would were it permanently altered by road construction, then it should remain intact.
So, proponents, PROVE WITH FACTS to the citizens of California that the value of six lanes of road between Ladera Ranch and the Orange County line is higher than that of the last remaining stretch of undisturbed public coastline visited by tourists from all over the world (some of whom surf and many more who don’t), as well as the largest intact designated coastal wilderness area and watershed in Southern California (San Mateo). Give me your most compelling argument - something other than “I guarantee you it will reduce traffic for everyone who travels within and through Southeast Orange County,” because I’m not buying it.
Then again, if this toll road gets built and ultimately experiences year after year of unprofitable operation as other TCA-built toll roads have, I guess I will be buying it. . .along with the rest of my fellow taxpayers.
The “sighburrdood” fellow with dozens of entries on this blog has a lot of time on his hands. I don’t know exactly where he lives, but something tells me he doesn’t spend hour after hour on this blog because he really wants a fast way to get from Coto De Caza to Oceanside.
I surf a dozen times a year at best, and maybe twice it will be at Trestles, so you cannot call me a surfer. I have posted one other blog in my life, so I am not a blogger either. I am just a citizen. I have three little boys who deserve the right to discover the value of their designated State Parks and Wilderness Areas without having to walk under tollway overpasses. What kind of experience is that? I’ll take them up to Los Angeles if I want them to have that experience.
What strikes me as ironic is that we’re having this discussion during a housing industry crisis AND as the country moves closer and closer to a recession. People are walking from their homes in droves, and yet the toll road proponents are pushing forward as if it’s still 2005. OF COURSE THEY ARE - THAT IS HOW THEY MAKE THEIR MONEY. THEY ARE LAND DEVELOPERS. Is there a housing shortage in Orange County today? Check out the latest Notice of Trustees Sale and Notice of Default lists, and tell me how long the average home in Southern California is staying on the market. And it is going to get worse - just watch.
Unintelligent development is just unchecked construction. Intelligent development serves the public good, delivering the maximum aggregate benefit for the greatest number of tax-paying citizens. From my perspective, this current toll road extension proposal is the former: UNINTELLIGENT.
You really want to reduce traffic? Make I-5 a toll road.
my questions for all those in favor of the toll road being built…..will this connection be free for people to drive on or will people have to pay. you say that the 5 needs it for congestion sake, but take into mind the 73 the begins/ends in costa mesa and ends in mission veijo/san juan capistrano.
it seems like it is there to help relieve congestion but i see the 405 and the 5 from costa mesa to mv/sjc just as crowded as ever….so how much impact will this have on the traffic…seriously
Here’s your solution, no more roads at all, start building subways, it works everywhere else in the world, why not here? If anyone sounds uninformed, its the people that are in favor of the toll road. How many of you who support this thing have ever been to trestles? How many of you actually know anything about this toll road? I’m guessing not many. I don’t know how you could possibly say that the only reason we would want to stop it is because we want more traffic, that was the most foolish statement I’ve ever read. No one wants traffic, even if it means less development. Which is another reason to stop the toll road. Orange County is overdeveloped as it is. Honestly, the only solution is to stop further development and start building a subway system. Southern California cannot support the amount of people it has. We already already take most of our water from outside sources. Why should we try to cram even more people into orange county? I don’t know about the rest of you, but I don’t want to end up like LA, but like it or not, that’s the direction we’re heading. The other end of the solution is create more high paying jobs in areas like Riverside, where most commuters to orange county come from.
Also, the train tracks aren’t exactly my favorite thing down at trestles either, so why put more garbage through that area? as much as you think it wont affect sediment flow, it’s going right over San Mateo creek. Even if it wouldn’t hurt the wave quality at trestles, i would oppose this road because that area is permanent open space. What kind of precedent does that set if you let developers take over open space? All our state and national parks would be subject to the same fate. There would be no beauty left in our world. Can you imagine houses and freeways all over Yosemite? or Big Sur? Shasta? that could be the direction we’re heading if we give up the San Onofre area. To add to that, there are several endangered species in that estuary. And with 60 percent of the park ruined, the impact on those animals would be devastating. You guys need to think about this more thoroughly. More roads do not equal less traffic. They mean more people and more development that we do not need. Toll roads don’t relieve traffic on major freeways. They only allow relief for the few people that decide to use them for a little while. Then you’re right back on the road with the rest of us. So for those of us who are sick and tired of all the concrete and overpopulation, please help stop this toll road. If anyone in this country had half a brain, we would’ve built a subway system years ago, saved a ton of money, and made even more once it was finished.
Think about this point of view on this whole “earth killing” challenge:
If one has the mental ability to learn how to relax outside of your house or office building and stay healthy the same way generations all over the world have for years then you should be able to appreciate the area of trestles and most will probably want it to stay undeveloped for ever. If you have children and have ever let them run free on the beach and scream with a rejuvenated spirit then that’s the part of your mind and your “gut” that should be leading your decision on the toll road. Free, open, uncluttered space for everyone, that is really what’s behind this grass roots force. It’s no different than the feeling some get when they go to spend the day in the snow or mountains with family or friends, no different then going to the dessert or your favorite lake. It would be a shame to have any of these things taken away or ruined or closed off to the people who enjoy them.
So if some people don’t make the time to get your family, friends or children to the beach and in the ocean then this might be a difficult point of view for some to grasp. I have to believe that if you live in So. Cal. and are any part of this blog then you’ve been to the beach (even if was Huntington or Newport or a cluttered popular beach with trash and police and riff raff etc…). Most of you should be able to think back to those times when you felt so refreshed and cleansed after a day at the beach and in the sun, it’s a healthy experience for anybody to have as often as possible. I hope everyone can remember that even if it was long ago. Now, triple that feeling and that memory, that’s the impact of a simple half day trip to the trestles area. The drive to get there is easy the walk is a total adventure for everyone, especially the kids if you go about it the right way, and when you get there its clean, wide open and uncluttered. There is no trash littered all over the beach at the end of the day because people pack in what they want to eat and pack out their trash. It’s raw perfection. Try to think of it in these terms for a bit and really make the right decision. What IS the Right Thing To Do - for health, for children, for future generations and for simple Life.
Let’s not rape this natural area with walls pillars, roads and noise. Not to mention the inevitable impact of debris, trash, tires, oil runoff to just name a few. All this from a road that is going to lead to further choking off of land all the way from the creek outlet at upper trestles to the hills. If the road is built and it will choke off this area and the next step Will Be concrete and runoff and rubbish that will follow the road all the way up the creek to the mountains and hills.
I should quote Mr. George Lambert (mayor of main street HB) earlier in the blog line He said “Why can’t we leave something pristine alone?”
This area is still pristine like a baby - uncluttered by adult ideology, untarnished by the canopy of greed, free flowing and open to give of its healing self just like a small child the place is perfect and we all need more of that in our lives.
It’s no wonder everything causes cancer, we are slowly choking off everything that once had a plan in natures course, we are killing ourselves.
Gandhi.
OK, I’m all for having parks and open space and don’t have anything against surfers but let’s all get real. The real reason to make improvements to our transportation system is to have roads that MOVE. A road that moves keeps our air quality cleaner! ALL of us want to have better air quality. Congested roads with gridlock create tons of emissions, making the reality of the greenhouse effect on the earth’s climate all too real. Anyone got better ideas for keeping the air clean? Ready to give up your cars and get a bike or walk? I don’t see Southern California getting ready for public transportation for a long while (although I would highly support rail, etc. too). We need to make this change for a better air quality for our children - we messed it up we should clean it up too.
Hey sighburrkook, Geoff was asking for an unbiased opinion. He obviously is not going to find it on this blog. And he obviously isn’t going to find on the TCA’s website either. The TCA is obviously biased. I don’t see how anyone can believe the lies coming from the TCA. You gotta be some kind of friggin moron to believe that load of bs. You work for the TCA, don’t you?
Make sure you ask the supporters of the toll road who they work for.
Overpaid government contractors are paying their employees to go to the meeting.
We stopped the Airport, We can stop this too. Keep the OC beautiful.
Dina said: “Make sure you ask the supporters of the toll road who they work for. ”
Dina, who do YOU work for? I, for one, am a retired, but active Veteran.
She also said: “Overpaid government contractors are paying their employees to go to the meeting.”
Dina? Where do you get these ridiculous ideas? I WISH someone was paying ME to go to the Del Mar meeting.
She also said: “We stopped the Airport, We can stop this too. Keep the OC beautiful.”
WE? Do you have a mouse in your pocket? I know I worked fervently to stop El Toro from becoming an airport. I lived at the time in Lake Forest. Where were YOU, Dina? Are you even of voting age?
O.C. is STILL one of the most beautiful areas in the world, to live. So much so, that 23,000 additional people came here to live last year. The tollroad might not be a thing of beauty, but it will be greatly appreciated by me, and the majority of other residents of the Southern half of O.C. once its built.
If only all the misinformed and MISINFORMING members of a TINY group of elitest NIMBYs would quit throwing up costly roadblocks, costing the rest of us Orange Countians MILLIONS of additional dollars to fight off their selfish scare tactics, it would have been built sooner, than later.
Dina, is that as in Dinasaur? Go back to the stone ages.
SC Fool said to me: “Geoff was asking for an unbiased opinion.”
Actually Mr. Fool, Geoff is on your side. The person asking for the unbiased opinion was “Wondering” ( scroll up.)
Mr. Fool also said: “I don’t see how anyone can believe the lies coming from the TCA.”
It’s pretty simple, actually, Mr. Fool. I read BOTH sides of the issue, and came to the INFORMED conclusion that it is ACTUALLY the Anti-tollroad forces that are telling the lies and deliberately misleading the gullible. ( Does THAT shoe fit you? )
You gotta be some kind of friggin moron to believe that load of bs.”
HMM, are you related to Mark Cole? He keeps refering to me as an idiot. What pray tell, gives either you or him the qualifications to call someone else an idiot, or a moron? Especially, with a name like yours.
And finally, Mr. Fool stated: “You work for the TCA, don’t you?”
No youngster, I happen to be retired. I DID, however have a job for a large portion of my life. Do you?
The toll road is nothing more than a Government handout to big developers. If anyone thinks it help traffic, just look what a big help the other toll roads are. Thank God the Surfrider Foundation is fighting to protect one of the last places that make Orange County unique. Not everybody wants Southern California to look like it was eaten by Taco Bell. I’ll be at the meeting in my “Save Trestles” shirt, and I’m bringing eggs to throw.
Sighburrdood,
State Treasurer Lockyer disagrees with this project so much that he actually filed a lawsuit against it. Makes a pretty big statement in my book.
So, would you say the CA State Treasurer is one of the gullible….??? Or… maybe he’s being paid off in surfboards by Surfrider…..???
I feel an argument along party lines coming in… 3….. 2….. 1
JJ said to me: “State Treasurer Lockyer disagrees with this project”
Sorry JJ, he’s been trumped by the Governor - Arnold is pushing FOR the tollroad extension.
DONT DO IT
Why should we support development of ANY new roads?
We need to stop greedy developers, and an oil-dependent lifestyle.
who cares about surfing? this is a bigger problem and the OC is a great place to confront this issue…or we are fuct.
stop driving.
Sighburrdood,
What, no attack on his credentials or party affiliation? I’m disappointed…. LOL.
To quote Lockyer’s latest letter to the Coastal Comission-
“As State Treasurer, I understand the importance of finding an appropriate balance between the competing demands of providing an infrastructure that meets the needs of a growing California and protecting the natural resources we cherish. The TCA’s proposal fails to balance these interests. On the contrary, it paves over one interest to satisfy the other.”
I’m going to guess and say that Lockyer has plenty of unbiased information, be it related to traffic, financial, ecological, or otherwise, to form his opinion.
Fact: If Surfrider and related organizations posted lies, the TCA would undoubtedly have had them quashed through a defamation suit of sorts.
Fact: Not all those that oppose this project are gullible. To insinuate such a thing is ludicrous.
So…. now what? Another reference back to the pro/con section on the TCA site with TCA formulated responses? Gullible… um, what was that saying…..the pot calling the kettle black?
Why are you so bitter about Dina’s post… so bitter that you resort back to 5th grade name calling? If you were a man of any honor, you would debate like one.
Again, I appreciate your work here.
JJ asked me: “Why are you so bitter about Dina’s post?”
I had finally had enough of her ( at least 3 similar posts ) short, 3 line posts taking pot-shots of tollroad supporters as ALL being paid stooges of the builders, developers, or the TCA, with absolutely NO facts or sources to validate her ridiculous statements.
The Dinasaur reference was a return “pot-shot” at her apparent reluctance to accept progress.
I appreciate most of your well thought posts and responses, JJ. You are obviously almost (LOL) as passionate about your position as I am about mine.
One reason I started to launch my seemingly one man campaign FOR the tollroad was because of the multitude of short burst potshots that I saw from people who have obviously no clue as to both sides of the issue - they for the most part just jumped on a bandwagon to launch a quick, uninformed, bumper-sticker spawned blast at the Pro-tollroad forces, who, for the most part have submitted more succinct or logical posts, or responses.
I’ve grown weary of fighting off attacks from numbskulls, only seeking to attack me personally, and, frankly, can’t wait for the issue to be decided, hopefully in favor to continue to finish a job that has been previously approved by every regulatory entity imaginable, only to be interrupted at a cost of tens of millions more of taxpayers dollars.
Is it Wednesday yet?
I just took the time to read through these blogs and found it pretty entertaining ! I was un-biased when I started but the more I read about peoples passion to keep the park and their waves and the one fellow who has passion for the road I dont feel so unbiased anymore .It only seems one guy the siberdood probably has his reasons to be pro toll road and if it is his job I would understand that his is trying to pay his bills .I dont understand every little thing but it does seem a little crazy to endanger a state park to build a road . Are there any other options ? Did the toll road make more money because the tolls have gone up ? I am just asking since it seems he knows a lot about the toll road for somebody who is not employed or stands to get financial reward by this road . I did not put a vote in yet , I will wait to hear back .
The Dinosaurs ruled the earth for 200 million years.
These are not specific, but demonstrate that these companies/associations have a vested interest in continuing to get government contracts worth 100s of millions. This is about companies making money off what cannot be replaced. Our state beach, Much of the money is funding things like the toll road.
The traffic would be reduced if the would just straighten the freeway.
(this is only the tip of the ice burg)
GRANITE CONSTRUCTION
Total Given to Date: $828,789
ASSOCIATED GENERAL CONTRACTORS/AGC
Total Given to Date: $267,100
ASSOCIATED GENERAL CONTRACTORS OF CALIFORNIA/AGC
Total Given to Date: $118,900
PETER KIEWIT & SONS
Total Given to Date: $190,000